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  #5171 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:45 AM
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oh R&T has no front load component? does anyone know what is their pay for NQE 1PQE - 3PQE?
R&T's pay has changed quite a bit in the last 1-2 years, but it was a significant improvement. I understand that it's now about the same as the other big 4, or maybe very marginally better.

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  #5172 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 01:09 AM
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It's true those who have the grit to stick it out during the glut would likely be able to move to higher value work within law, but unfortunately many get disillusioned and leave the industry which explains the shortage of mid-level lawyers. In my experience at least, PI practice basically surrounds representing shady car workshops (and taxi drivers) to siphon money off insurers with exaggerated claims and the help of dodgy medical expert witnesses. Now you know the reason why your motor insurance premiums are getting more expensive.

Senior lawyers used to preach that private practice is about survival of the fittest and your returns will grow proportionately to the number of years in practice. But that is not true anymore - salaries have stagnated or even decreased, partnership offers are few and far between but working hours and welfare are not getting any better. The biggest lie in my opinion is that there are many career opportunities outside law, for e.g. banks would take a STEM graduate over a lawyer any day.
Agree so work for the insurers

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  #5173 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 04:53 AM
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A bit unfair, if not massively unfair with what happened in the lawmentors.sg case; the Milbank lawyer even if he was opportunistic, isn’t that a product of a free market ? Fees for mentorship, consultations etc are EVERYWHERE in all industries (consulting, banking, accountancy) and honestly 8k for 100 over hours of mentoring means 80 dollars/hour. Even JC tuition teacher charge more.

The worst part is they criticised his unsubstantiated and speculative opinion of the shrinking market and lack of jobs for NQs. Well there isn’t any concrete cohesive data pool in the first place to begin with so speculation is bound to happen. Anecdotal evidence is still some form of substantiation. Moreover, isnt this news better than Lawyers painting a rosy picture of luxury and fat salaries to draw people to the profession, only to Work them to the bone as labour and spit them out ? Shouldn’t that be penalised too?

I agree it wasn’t the most ideal method of mentorship advertising, but to be stripped of your livelihood and to no longer be able to immediately provide for your family just because you created a website - and closed it - without taking any money or starting any formal consultation sessions seems unfair. Just absurdity in my opinion.

Of course, I may be wrong. Just my opinion.

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  #5174 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 08:54 AM
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A bit unfair, if not massively unfair with what happened in the lawmentors.sg case; the Milbank lawyer even if he was opportunistic, isnít that a product of a free market ? Fees for mentorship, consultations etc are EVERYWHERE in all industries (consulting, banking, accountancy) and honestly 8k for 100 over hours of mentoring means 80 dollars/hour. Even JC tuition teacher charge more.

The worst part is they criticised his unsubstantiated and speculative opinion of the shrinking market and lack of jobs for NQs. Well there isnít any concrete cohesive data pool in the first place to begin with so speculation is bound to happen. Anecdotal evidence is still some form of substantiation. Moreover, isnt this news better than Lawyers painting a rosy picture of luxury and fat salaries to draw people to the profession, only to Work them to the bone as labour and spit them out ? Shouldnít that be penalised too?

I agree it wasnít the most ideal method of mentorship advertising, but to be stripped of your livelihood and to no longer be able to immediately provide for your family just because you created a website - and closed it - without taking any money or starting any formal consultation sessions seems unfair. Just absurdity in my opinion.

Of course, I may be wrong. Just my opinion.
I disagree with what he did, but I see it as a moment of folly and he took it down quite soon. The result you see now (him being fired from milbank) is a result of social media - public pressure forcing his firm to let him go. So blame social media for that. Nothing to do with the system though - he hasnít been disbarred, law soc doesnít have the final say on that (the court does).

I also think he shouldnít have to bear the entire wrath of the public. The other 9 co-conspirators should come clean with their names as well.
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  #5175 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 10:40 AM
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A bit unfair, if not massively unfair with what happened in the lawmentors.sg case; the Milbank lawyer even if he was opportunistic, isnít that a product of a free market ? Fees for mentorship, consultations etc are EVERYWHERE in all industries (consulting, banking, accountancy) and honestly 8k for 100 over hours of mentoring means 80 dollars/hour. Even JC tuition teacher charge more.

The worst part is they criticised his unsubstantiated and speculative opinion of the shrinking market and lack of jobs for NQs. Well there isnít any concrete cohesive data pool in the first place to begin with so speculation is bound to happen. Anecdotal evidence is still some form of substantiation. Moreover, isnt this news better than Lawyers painting a rosy picture of luxury and fat salaries to draw people to the profession, only to Work them to the bone as labour and spit them out ? Shouldnít that be penalised too?

I agree it wasnít the most ideal method of mentorship advertising, but to be stripped of your livelihood and to no longer be able to immediately provide for your family just because you created a website - and closed it - without taking any money or starting any formal consultation sessions seems unfair. Just absurdity in my opinion.

Of course, I may be wrong. Just my opinion.
You his friend?

Anyway if you read closely, aside from the coaching aspect, he was also selling the idea that with the mentors' positions as senior associates and junior partners, they could place their mentees in internship and traineeship positions in their respective firms . Regardless of whether they could really do that or not, that was probably the part that sounded massive alarm bells for law society. The mere suggestion of that seems to allude to what we see in corruption cases.

The second part is the predatory pitching and fear mongering which is slightly more of a grey area. But the law deans have adequately explained why this is distasteful.

By the way, it was Milbank's decision to fire him, and not lawsoc's doing. Since law firms, being client facing, are very sensitive to reputational issues, no surprises there that they dropped him like a hot potato. Moral of the story is if it sounds like a bad idea, it probably is.
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  #5176 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 10:50 AM
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You his friend?

Anyway if you read closely, aside from the coaching aspect, he was also selling the idea that with the mentors' positions as senior associates and junior partners, they could place their mentees in internship and traineeship positions in their respective firms . Regardless of whether they could really do that or not, that was probably the part that sounded massive alarm bells for law society. The mere suggestion of that seems to allude to what we see in corruption cases.

The second part is the predatory pitching and fear mongering which is slightly more of a grey area. But the law deans have adequately explained why this is distasteful.

By the way, it was Milbank's decision to fire him, and not lawsoc's doing. Since law firms, being client facing, are very sensitive to reputational issues, no surprises there that they dropped him like a hot potato. Moral of the story is if it sounds like a bad idea, it probably is.

All very valid points. Nah Iím not his friend, just a keyboard warrior but one that got quite shocked when I read the news. I do part time university admission counselling so it seemed analogous to that.

Your point about the implied circumvention of the democratic application process is true; but we all know people who have entered the industry using connections privately, at least this opens it up to everyone ? Plus there was an option to defer payment if they canít afford. But ultimately youíre right itís never a right thing to publicly insinuate corruption-like services.

Yes It was Milbankís decision not the law soc, but that was a very predictable outcome from the law Socís POV when they used words like fox in sheepís clothing - pre-charge accusations and libel ?

Yes moral of the story is if sounds bad it probably is - thanks for clarifying ! Stay safe !
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  #5177 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:27 PM
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All very valid points. Nah Iím not his friend, just a keyboard warrior but one that got quite shocked when I read the news. I do part time university admission counselling so it seemed analogous to that.

Your point about the implied circumvention of the democratic application process is true; but we all know people who have entered the industry using connections privately, at least this opens it up to everyone ? Plus there was an option to defer payment if they canít afford. But ultimately youíre right itís never a right thing to publicly insinuate corruption-like services.

Yes It was Milbankís decision not the law soc, but that was a very predictable outcome from the law Socís POV when they used words like fox in sheepís clothing - pre-charge accusations and libel ?

Yes moral of the story is if sounds bad it probably is - thanks for clarifying ! Stay safe !
I think the fact of charging fees for mentorship / counselling / training is probably the most legitimate part of what they were offering. I agree that the really, really dodgy part is taking money to do placements (especially at your own firm - corrupt inducement?), and to a lesser extent the more extreme form of marketing used (described as fear-mongering).

If the various parties' reactions to this episode seem a little harsh, that's because the profession places a lot of emphasis on reputation and standing. There may be other reasons behind closed doors, so it's hard to say.
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  #5178 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 01:19 PM
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Seems he was an aviation and maritime asset finance lawyer. Perhaps he was already on the outs given the current climate and needed this scheme as a hustle.


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  #5179 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 01:41 PM
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Seems he was an aviation and maritime asset finance lawyer. Perhaps he was already on the outs given the current climate and needed this scheme as a hustle.
Market is damn bad now
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  #5180 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 02:35 PM
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You his friend?

Anyway if you read closely, aside from the coaching aspect, he was also selling the idea that with the mentors' positions as senior associates and junior partners, they could place their mentees in internship and traineeship positions in their respective firms . Regardless of whether they could really do that or not, that was probably the part that sounded massive alarm bells for law society. The mere suggestion of that seems to allude to what we see in corruption cases.

The second part is the predatory pitching and fear mongering which is slightly more of a grey area. But the law deans have adequately explained why this is distasteful.

By the way, it was Milbank's decision to fire him, and not lawsoc's doing. Since law firms, being client facing, are very sensitive to reputational issues, no surprises there that they dropped him like a hot potato. Moral of the story is if it sounds like a bad idea, it probably is.
yes, it might have been corruption or breach of an employee's implied duty of good faith
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