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  #5161 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 07:19 PM
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oh R&T has no front load component? does anyone know what is their pay for NQE 1PQE - 3PQE?

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  #5162 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 08:04 PM
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Kenna pwned. Maybe he shouldve thought twice before being such an opportunistic greedy-ass
I agree but maybe it's just covid getting to everyone.

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  #5163 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 08:06 PM
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It is shocking how the industry is not painting the full picture of how bad the glut of lawyers is. A good number of graduates during the peak of the glut in 2014 never managed to secure a TC and switched careers. Those who managed to secure a TC struggle to get retained. The fortunate few who managed to get a NQ position end up in general litigation such as personal injury and are paid pittance. To top it all off, the liberalisation of the legal sector in the last decade has basically opened the floodgates for foreign firms to freely compete for high-value work and left local firms scrapping the barrel.

tldr; get out of law while you still can.
Ok, I mean personal injury isn't that bad. Some PQE is better than no PQE, and you can always leave for better after you've gotten a lot of advocacy experience

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  #5164 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 08:58 PM
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Ok, I mean personal injury isn't that bad. Some PQE is better than no PQE, and you can always leave for better after you've gotten a lot of advocacy experience
It's true those who have the grit to stick it out during the glut would likely be able to move to higher value work within law, but unfortunately many get disillusioned and leave the industry which explains the shortage of mid-level lawyers. In my experience at least, PI practice basically surrounds representing shady car workshops (and taxi drivers) to siphon money off insurers with exaggerated claims and the help of dodgy medical expert witnesses. Now you know the reason why your insurance premiums are getting more expensive.

Senior lawyers used to preach that private practice is about survival of the fittest and your returns will grow proportionately to the number of years in practice. But that is not true anymore - salaries have stagnated or even decreased, partnership offers are few and far between but working hours and welfare are not getting any better. The biggest lie in my opinion is that there are many career opportunities outside law.
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  #5165 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 09:04 PM
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Ok, I mean personal injury isn't that bad. Some PQE is better than no PQE, and you can always leave for better after you've gotten a lot of advocacy experience
It's true those who have the grit to stick it out during the glut would likely be able to move to higher value work within law, but unfortunately many get disillusioned and leave the industry which explains the shortage of mid-level lawyers. In my experience at least, PI practice basically surrounds representing shady car workshops (and taxi drivers) to siphon money off insurers with exaggerated claims and the help of dodgy medical expert witnesses. Now you know the reason why your motor insurance premiums are getting more expensive.

Senior lawyers used to preach that private practice is about survival of the fittest and your returns will grow proportionately to the number of years in practice. But that is not true anymore - salaries have stagnated or even decreased, partnership offers are few and far between but working hours and welfare are not getting any better. The biggest lie in my opinion is that there are many career opportunities outside law, for e.g. banks would take a STEM graduate over a lawyer any day.
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  #5166 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 10:39 PM
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Just to share, I have a law degree, called to the bar. I now work as a public servant alongside people with generic degrees. Earning an extremely low wage (about $60k/annum including bonuses). I do question why I have fallen this low at times, but if I'm honest, I do like my work too. Maybe that's the reward.
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  #5167 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 11:02 PM
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Just to share, I have a law degree, called to the bar. I now work as a public servant alongside people with generic degrees. Earning an extremely low wage (about $60k/annum including bonuses). I do question why I have fallen this low at times, but if I'm honest, I do like my work too. Maybe that's the reward.
Kudos to you for sharing. There's no shame in leaving the industry and I encourage those who did to come forward to speak the truth about the industry especially the batches who got duped by the supply committee to read law. The way how toxicity and harassment at the workplace is normalised by junior lawyers is something which few would dare to speak out in fear of losing their jobs or being moved to cold storage.
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  #5168 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 11:37 PM
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Kudos to you for sharing. There's no shame in leaving the industry and I encourage those who did to come forward to speak the truth about the industry especially the batches who got duped by the supply committee to read law. The way how toxicity and harassment at the workplace is normalised by junior lawyers is something which few would dare to speak out in fear of losing their jobs or being moved to cold storage.
Let's be clear here. No one duped anybody to read law. Its too bad if you were regaled by tales of young associates earning fat paychecks in the Big 4 and shortly after hopping over to international firms for even larger $$

That experience largely doesn't hold true for most people.

Let's look at the facts objectively: (1) the legal industry is going through structural changes worldwide, and the halcyon days of charging clients high finance-esqe fat fees are over, (2) the Singapore legal market has never been mature enough to support a large pool of lawyers working in big firms and earning big bucks. We are not a prime destination for finance in Asia, much as we like to think we are. That crown is (still) held by Hong Kong.

Your law degree still gives you an advantage and opens doors if you know how to use it. Sure, you may have to hustle like all other grads, but you were never "special" or guaranteed a high paying job to begin with.

You did not lose opportunity cost studying for an LLB at the undergrad level. The situation here isn't analogous to the US where people shell out big bucks (or take loans) for a post-grad JD, and expect some measure of ROI to pay off their loans.

If you were stupid enough to pay for an expensive overseas law education because you couldn't get into NUS or SMU for a cost-effective degree, then that's on you or your parents who footed your bill.

Short of holding another protected professional degree like medicine or dentistry, there ought to be no expectation of guaranteed employment in a cushy high paying role.

Grow up and learn to hustle, like everybody else.
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  #5169 (permalink)  
Old 30-04-2020, 11:47 PM
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Kudos to you for sharing. There's no shame in leaving the industry and I encourage those who did to come forward to speak the truth about the industry especially the batches who got duped by the supply committee to read law. The way how toxicity and harassment at the workplace is normalised by junior lawyers is something which few would dare to speak out in fear of losing their jobs or being moved to cold storage.
The law grads aren't duped by the supply committee to read law, they are duped by the illusion of grandeur as a lawyer. They think they can earn fat paychecks, drive conti cars and live in a GCB when in reality, it is only reserved for the special few. The rest will just slog till health problems catch up to them no thanks to their 'balanced' working hours.
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  #5170 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2020, 12:45 AM
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Let's be clear here. No one duped anybody to read law. Its too bad if you were regaled by tales of young associates earning fat paychecks in the Big 4 and shortly after hopping over to international firms for even larger $$
I do agree with your analysis of our lacklustre legal industry but be let's be honest, A level graduates choose their degree based on what they perceive to be a safe choice and what the industry signals to the market. This isn't a problem only in the legal industry, have you not seen batches of chemical engineering and bio-engineering graduates got burnt by the government's marketing tricks of painting a rosy picture of the industry only to quietly leave graduates to die after they graduate?

The supply committee has been sending wrong signals to the market since its first incarnation and unlike general degrees, law students do not have much options to steer their career on a different trajectory once they begin law school. The law graduates who graduated at the peak of the current glut decided to read law partly because of news reports on the shortage of lawyers, barely a year or two later a third law school was set up and by the time of graduation the boo-boo was attempted to be covered up with a restatement that the shortage was only in community lawyers.

It is true that in the US many students take on huge debt to get a JD but its not a straightforward comparison. A JD in the US is a 2 year program and US graduates has the option to fall back on their bachelors or previous work experience.

Everyone would hustle if given the opportunity but the fact is some are not given a chance, and the fortunate seniors have no empathy for the juniors because they have not been in their shoes.
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