Really that bad for engineers?

Before you claim that the guy is ********ting, why not ask him how he did it and LEARN? Just because you are not earning as much as him, you claim what he says is false? Maybe he EXCELS at what he does and you are just AVERAGE hence he is much much better paid than you?

If you are unhappy with your pay (not saying you are since you never indicated) because of the industry you are in and you know which engineering industries pay better (o&g, offshore & marine, certain parts of IT), why not try and enter those industries? Or if you know that engineers are better paid in other countries, why not try and become an expat working in those countries?

Yeah, you will most probably say "got so easy meh??". So, how hard have you tried? Have you sat down and assess the skills that you have that may be applicable to those better paying sectors? Have you tried learning sales/marketing to better sell/market yourself? Have you applied like mad to those better paying companies?

Question is: Are you good enough? Do you EXCEL at your work? Hell, do you even know what you are good at so that you can capitalise on what you are good at? It is common sense that only people who EXCEL at something get paid well. Yes, you may say that there are people who suck at work but yet get promoted/paid well. You may call them wayang/PLP, but hey atleast they EXCEL at wayanging/PLPing, still better than you right?

You can be successful (AKA earn alot) in any industry (yes, even engineering/IT) as long as you EXCEL at what you do. Why do you even care about "AVERAGE" OR "TYPICAL" pay scale? Are you aiming to be AVERAGE? If all you look at is "TYPICAL" pay scale, then I would recommend you join the public sector since that's a place where you can be AVERAGE and yet get a stable job that pays well enough for you to live comfortably.

Oh and 10 years of SAME experience =/= 10 years of DIFFERENT experience.
Matter of quality vs quantity.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This forum is full of rubbish about engineers salary. I think they are planted by PAP.

In typical private sector
engineer: below 2-3k
senior engineer: 3.2-5k
principal engineer: above 5k

Ass Manager: above 5k
Manager: above 6k
Dept Manager: above 8k

MD: can be alot

How many managers and director can we have? So many people claiming they earning alot alot is ********.

Some lucky guys may end up in oil and gas in western country. Salary around SGD60,000-10,000 before tax even for those juniors. That is for those lucky people.

government:
Normally above 3k, but alot of politics
Normally give you 5k at the 5th years, but most people can't take politics and left in the 2nd -3rd year.

My best Singaporean friend NUS 2nd upper miss 1st class by 0.1 GPA
4k after 7 years doing R&D.

Me, 5k after 8 years. I consider myself lucky. Everywhere I go 90% of colleague FT.

Nowadays 80% of NUS/NTU engineering graduate cannot find engineering job.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Before you claim that the guy is ********ting, why not ask him how he did it and LEARN? Just because you are not earning as much as him, you claim what he says is false? Maybe he EXCELS at what he does and you are just AVERAGE hence he is much much better paid than you?

If you are unhappy with your pay (not saying you are since you never indicated) because of the industry you are in and you know which engineering industries pay better (o&g, offshore & marine, certain parts of IT), why not try and enter those industries? Or if you know that engineers are better paid in other countries, why not try and become an expat working in those countries?

Yeah, you will most probably say "got so easy meh??". So, how hard have you tried? Have you sat down and assess the skills that you have that may be applicable to those better paying sectors? Have you tried learning sales/marketing to better sell/market yourself? Have you applied like mad to those better paying companies?

Question is: Are you good enough? Do you EXCEL at your work? Hell, do you even know what you are good at so that you can capitalise on what you are good at? It is common sense that only people who EXCEL at something get paid well. Yes, you may say that there are people who suck at work but yet get promoted/paid well. You may call them wayang/PLP, but hey atleast they EXCEL at wayanging/PLPing, still better than you right?

You can be successful (AKA earn alot) in any industry (yes, even engineering/IT) as long as you EXCEL at what you do. Why do you even care about "AVERAGE" OR "TYPICAL" pay scale? Are you aiming to be AVERAGE? If all you look at is "TYPICAL" pay scale, then I would recommend you join the public sector since that's a place where you can be AVERAGE and yet get a stable job that pays well enough for you to live comfortably.

Oh and 10 years of SAME experience =/= 10 years of DIFFERENT experience.
Matter of quality vs quantity.

You show me someone doing engineering in SG earning 190 000 per month as he claim, not in Goldman Sachs or similar parasitic industries, or not in sales.

You go survey jobstreet than come back talk to me. This person is drawing the MD pay and he claim he is an engineer.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This forum is full of rubbish about engineers salary. I think they are planted by PAP.

In typical private sector
engineer: below 2-3k
senior engineer: 3.2-5k
principal engineer: above 5k

Ass Manager: above 5k
Manager: above 6k
Dept Manager: above 8k

MD: can be alot

How many managers and director can we have? So many people claiming they earning alot alot is ********.

Some lucky guys may end up in oil and gas in western country. Salary around SGD60,000-10,000 before tax even for those juniors. That is for those lucky people.

government:
Normally above 3k, but alot of politics
Normally give you 5k at the 5th years, but most people can't take politics and left in the 2nd -3rd year.

My best Singaporean friend NUS 2nd upper miss 1st class by 0.1 GPA
4k after 7 years doing R&D.

Me, 5k after 8 years. I consider myself lucky. Everywhere I go 90% of colleague FT.

Nowadays 80% of NUS/NTU engineering graduate cannot find engineering job.

The private sector pay listed is a good estimate for average engineers. I also belong to one of those average ones, 4k after 5++ yrs.

Some good engineers don't fit into normal salary range. My colleague 1st class NTU, 4k+ after 3+yrs. I estimate his gross is 6k+ which is way off the company's normal pay scale afaik.

In typical private sector
engineer: 2-3k
senior engineer: 3.2-5k
principal engineer: above 5k

Ass Manager: above 5k
Manager: above 6k
Dept Manager: above 8k

----------------------------------------------------------------
Promotion prospect for above out of college average engineer

engineer Year 1- Year 3
If people does not give you senior engineer latest at the 5th year, they are telling you to go implicitly.

senior engineer Year 3 -
You can stuck here for rest of your life, but most engineer do not mind if their salary stagnant at around 5k

principal engineer/asst manager Year 8 -
With some luck, a boss who like you, and a reasonably good company, you may get principal engineer at Year 8, and stuck there for rest of your life.

----------------------------------------------------------------

DSTA, DSO, LTA....etc
engineer above 3k
5 years get 5k if you are good at stabbing people

----------------------------------------------------------------

Civil service pay for local non scholar graduate
above 3k
5 years get 5k if you are good at stabbing people

I look at the civil service salary forum, there are lots and lots of ******** similar to engineer salary forum. I am personally in ministry. Take 2nd lower honor teacher as example.

Join GEO 1: 3k
Year 1 after NIE GEO 1A1 : around 3.5k
Year 3-5 after NIE GEO 1A2 : above 5k

Turnover rate: horrible, within 5 years more than 50% resign despite good $$$. Being in ministry and private sector, I 1000% assured you that you find the most wicked people there in government job.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I am seeing lots and lots of ******** in salary forum. I think PAP is trying to paint a good picture.

[Bean]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

That some people can make a reasonable living out of being an engineer (>5k/mth before bonus in 5 yrs) is true. It really depends on what kind of engineer, and what sector. I know quite a few who are earning that amount.

And that some people can make 1M out of investments, is conceivable, although I don't personally know any. Making 1M out of property, I know quite a few who made it that way, some made a few millions.

As the other forumer said, don't begrudge those who made it. Think of how u can become one of them.

hitting 5k in 5 years as an engineer is very hard unless you are in the oil/gas sector....or in DSTA/DSO/PUB as an engineer..

I have been work in ST engineering and by this coming july will be 5 years.....estimate can't even hit 3.9k after 5 years inclusive 1 promotion

[Bean]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The private sector pay listed is a good estimate for average engineers. I also belong to one of those average ones, 4k after 5++ yrs.

Some good engineers don't fit into normal salary range. My colleague 1st class NTU, 4k+ after 3+yrs. I estimate his gross is 6k+ which is way off the company's normal pay scale afaik.

4k+ to 6k+......mean must consecutively having 15% annual increment then can hit 6k+ in the next 3 years...

Engineering company where got pay annual increment 15% one

ST pay only 3-5% .....3% is the norm, 5% is for 'A' grader....lol

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You show me someone doing engineering in SG earning 190 000 per month as he claim, not in Goldman Sachs or similar parasitic industries, or not in sales.

You go survey jobstreet than come back talk to me. This person is drawing the MD pay and he claim he is an engineer.

The data I gave earlier viz. "Computer and information systems manager – $9,751" is 3rd quartile data. He most likely belongs to the top band. Not surprising for monthly to be within 12-15k range. In other words, 190k is not out of a question. IT systems manager in a bank, is still IT/engineer isn't it? Just because you don't often see people making this level of income, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No one here is saying that many engineers make good. That is not the case. Most engineers get stuck at a lower salary range. But that doesn't mean a handful can't survive and do well.

Being in the public service, you see people doing well and you automatically assume they are backstabbers. That to me, is a really nasty attitude and uncalled for. I know of many who cleared the 5k hurdle within the 5 years because they did well, and they are certainly nice, helpful people. What's wrong with you?

[Bean]

in LTA the annual increment that good meh??
in july 2007, LTA offer 2nd lower fresh grad $2900 as mechanical engineer.....

It will need a consecutively minimum 12% annual increment to hit 5K in 5 year(assuming no promotion)

12% annual increment .....cannot be

Originally Posted by Anonymous

The data I gave earlier viz. "Computer and information systems manager – $9,751" is 3rd quartile data. He most likely belongs to the top band. Not surprising for monthly to be within 12-15k range. In other words, 190k is not out of a question. IT systems manager in a bank, is still IT/engineer isn't it? Just because you don't often see people making this level of income, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No one here is saying that many engineers make good. That is not the case. Most engineers get stuck at a lower salary range. But that doesn't mean a handful can't survive and do well.

Being in the public service, you see people doing well and you automatically assume they are backstabbers. That to me, is a really nasty attitude and uncalled for. I know of many who cleared the 5k hurdle within the 5 years because they did well, and they are certainly nice, helpful people. What's wrong with you?

I agree. But you also must see what is the reason Singaporean engineers don't do well in banks.

Go Changi biz park and see your yourself in the morning the IT back office of Citi and Stand chart.

I 100% tell u close to 100% is FT India Indian. We are the victim of racism. If you look at PHD of EE/CS of NUS/NTU, majority are non Indians.

But everyone is deem lousy by Indians. Being a veteran engineer, I would say that rampant racism against Singaporeans are practice by especially PRCs and FT Indians.

One of my previous PRC manager never hire any Singaporean. Another Malaysian manager hires some Singaporeans but cues is given to Malaysian engineers to bully Singaporean engineers. If SG engineer fight back, he will get a low ranking. SG engineers are further humilated under that Malaysian manager by non-promotion and humilating pay rise.

In DSTA/DSO...etc go and ask their alumni what they went through. I believe racism against Singaporeans is employed by PAP to spur into our hide.

If you want to go into banks IT Dept today which are controlled by FT Indians-- unless pig sprout wings.

Subject: A step in the right direction: discriminatory practices against Singaporeans
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]

Dear Mr. Minister:
I just read the article entitled ‘Don’t hire, promote own kind at expense of S’poreans‘. I cannot begin to say just how thrilled I am to see that the government is FINALLY stepping up to the plate in trying to curb this problem. I have been ranting and raving about this issue ever since I joined the workforce in 2004. I have worked at Hewlett Packard and Frost & Sullivan in Singapore, and both these companies are unabashedly guilty of such hiring practices.

I was a Director at Frost & Sullivan (Singapore) Pte Ltd. and I am well aware of our internal slant towards hiring MBAs from India. There was one time when we made 12 offers in one fell swoop to SP Jain (Singapore campus) and IIM MBA graduates. NOT A SINGLE Singaporean was offered a position. It wasn’t for lack of qualified Singaporean candidates either. Even our campus recruitment was geared towards hiring from Indian universities, instead of NUS, SMU and NTU. Cost was not the factor. We offered many of these graduates between SGD6,000 to SGD10,000 a month.

I can’t help but recall a situation of such irony that to this day, it pains me to have had experienced it at all. At Frost & Sullivan, one of our largest client sectors was the Government sector in Singapore. We brought in well over USD2 million a year in consulting engagements from the Government sector alone – both stat boards and ministries. When we staffed our projects, we would be lucky if we had even 20% of Singaporeans being utilized in the project team.

The entire management team at Frost & Sullivan are foreigners (with the exception of one). We have also helped many of our foreign hires to become Singaporean citizens during the period of their employment. While I am not against using foreign talent, the unfortunate reality is that many of these decently paying positions could have very easily been filled by Singaporeans.

Having done Manpower planning studies for two stat boards in Singapore, the facts and figures are quite startling, to say the least.

During my tenure at Hewlett Packard, I was on several government IT projects. Over 90% of my 100+ person team were foreigners. Like many other companies, how HP cleverly circumvented being “obvious” was to use “contractors”. Our contract was with the employment agencies who, in turn hire almost only foreigners. Hence, the headcount was never really seen. Of the 100+ person who was staffed on this one particular government IT engagement, less than 10% were full-time employees hired directly by HP.

In addition to my own personal experience, I know with absolute certainty that many of my close non-Singaporean friends who head up IT divisions within the banking sector have similar preferences of hiring foreigners over Singaporeans. While I cannot condone such practices, the system makes it far too easy for this to happen. They claim that it is better to hire foreigners because these foreign workers are more than likely to stay as almost all of them want to ultimately obtain Singapore citizenship.

Rather than formulating workable incentives to keep Singaporeans at their jobs, management takes the easy way out. Is this how a country takes care of its own?

As citizens, we give our country two and a half years of our life by going through national service. In that time, our foreign compatriots gain experience in the work force and we, as loyal citizens are penalized. Where is the logic behind this? I strongly believe that our government has a primary and inalienable duty and dedication to its citizens.

The vicious cycle is well engrained in every level of employment. Senior Management positions are given to foreign nationals. They then are inclined to hire their own kind, cutting people like myself completely out in the cold with no options but to seek higher-salaried employment elsewhere.

I am now a foreigner working in China because of the simple fact that many of the high-paying jobs in Singapore have been taken by my foreign friends. I would return to Singapore in a heartbeat if I could make the same sort of salary as I do here.

I have never felt more slighted being a Singaporean than I have during my career in Singapore.

Warmest Regards,
xxxxx