Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey smart guy what forum are you in? Before calling others a retard why not check the mirror.

um I'm not OP but I also didn't really understand the comparison..? And also I'm confused - are you saying this forum.. is for idiots? It's a salary forum?

How likely is it to make partner in a law firm here? I've been coming across many articles saying the prospects are increasingly unlikely, but those are from other jurisdictions.

Would you say making partner in a big 4 firm is relatively easy in law here? On average, how long does one take to make partner and what qualities are required.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

How likely is it to make partner in a law firm here? I've been coming across many articles saying the prospects are increasingly unlikely, but those are from other jurisdictions.

Would you say making partner in a big 4 firm is relatively easy in law here? On average, how long does one take to make partner and what qualities are required.

In local big4 it's a relatively straightforward progress from Assoc to SA to Salaried Partner. It takes generally 3-4 PQE to make SA (depending on the firm). At this stage, as long as you hit billables and don't screw up, you're a shoo-in for promotion. It's literally a lockstep promotion pathway.

From there, the speed of your promotion is dependent on "performance". You are technically eligible to make salaried partner from around 5 PQE (but most make it around +-7 PQE). You can promote faster if you happen to be 1. exceptional either in law or in finding clients or 2. have connections to the right people like a minister or rich family. Unfortunately in SG (like in most countries), your surname needs to mean something if you want to open doors. However, generally, if you don't screw up, you can expect to be promoted around 7 PQE. This will depend on how hard your boss fights for your promotion and inclusion as a partner, so you have to find the right boss (i.e. one that likes you and isn't a timid/heck-care type).

For Salaried Partner to Equity Partner, the progression varies quite abit, but it is usually 10+ PQE at minimum (12-15 PQE seems quite common). At the SP and EP stage, the focus is on business development (i.e. how much clients you bring in), so it's really no longer about the law - that's for the grunt workers (assocs and SAs).

However, there are people who are generally stuck at certain stages (usually SP stage) either because they cannot/refuse to find clients, or they don't want the added stress. Some firms are willing to let you rot in the SP stage (why not, it's an experienced EP level partner making only SP salary), some firms might have an up-or-out culture (either you are promoted within x years or you leave). It depends on the firm.

Anyone feel that the lateral market for corporate is red hot in London right now? Firms there seem to be actively recruiting for international candidates, including Singaporeans.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In local big4 it's a relatively straightforward progress from Assoc to SA to Salaried Partner. It takes generally 3-4 PQE to make SA (depending on the firm). At this stage, as long as you hit billables and don't screw up, you're a shoo-in for promotion. It's literally a lockstep promotion pathway.

From there, the speed of your promotion is dependent on "performance". You are technically eligible to make salaried partner from around 5 PQE (but most make it around +-7 PQE). You can promote faster if you happen to be 1. exceptional either in law or in finding clients or 2. have connections to the right people like a minister or rich family. Unfortunately in SG (like in most countries), your surname needs to mean something if you want to open doors. However, generally, if you don't screw up, you can expect to be promoted around 7 PQE. This will depend on how hard your boss fights for your promotion and inclusion as a partner, so you have to find the right boss (i.e. one that likes you and isn't a timid/heck-care type).

For Salaried Partner to Equity Partner, the progression varies quite abit, but it is usually 10+ PQE at minimum (12-15 PQE seems quite common). At the SP and EP stage, the focus is on business development (i.e. how much clients you bring in), so it's really no longer about the law - that's for the grunt workers (assocs and SAs).

However, there are people who are generally stuck at certain stages (usually SP stage) either because they cannot/refuse to find clients, or they don't want the added stress. Some firms are willing to let you rot in the SP stage (why not, it's an experienced EP level partner making only SP salary), some firms might have an up-or-out culture (either you are promoted within x years or you leave). It depends on the firm.

Everything of this is well meaning advice. But I only have one comment.
SA to Salaried partner these days is not guaranteed even if you tough out 7 years etc.
A lot of firms insert the “of Counsel” role these days including the big four.
Of counsel is practically a trial before salaried partnership.

[Laui]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Everything of this is well meaning advice. But I only have one comment.
SA to Salaried partner these days is not guaranteed even if you tough out 7 years etc.
A lot of firms insert the “of Counsel” role these days including the big four.
Of counsel is practically a trial before salaried partnership.

Agreed. Nowadays it’s a lot tougher to make partner at a local Big4 firm. Decades of partners being promoted after staying 7 years as associates has resulted in a very top heavy structure. Given the small size of economy and the corresponding amount of Singapore law-related work, there’s only so much business to be won / made - which restricts the growth of law firms as partnerships. As OP has mentioned, even solid candidates get promoted to “Of Counsel” rather than partner, which is more or less a glorified senior associate.

This, along with low pay, has led to a lot more people jumping ship earlier on to international firms for the money / prestige, or inhouse / smaller firms for the better work-life balance. Not many people from this generation have dreams or ambitions of making partner anyway so might as well make the time in practice worth it for the time spent.

Originally Posted by Laui

Agreed. Nowadays it’s a lot tougher to make partner at a local Big4 firm. Decades of partners being promoted after staying 7 years as associates has resulted in a very top heavy structure. Given the small size of economy and the corresponding amount of Singapore law-related work, there’s only so much business to be won / made - which restricts the growth of law firms as partnerships. As OP has mentioned, even solid candidates get promoted to “Of Counsel” rather than partner, which is more or less a glorified senior associate.

This, along with low pay, has led to a lot more people jumping ship earlier on to international firms for the money / prestige, or inhouse / smaller firms for the better work-life balance. Not many people from this generation have dreams or ambitions of making partner anyway so might as well make the time in practice worth it for the time spent.

Thanks all for your responses! I was the original poster who asked the qn.

Of Counsel is only an A&G thing? Based on what I know from some seniors/contacts. I don't think other Big 4 firms employ the Of Counsel rank as an in-between SA and JP, but I suppose this trend may catch on.

As a senior associate, I would probably leave the firm if I don't get made JP within a reasonable time and go to a smaller firm that is willing to. While some may say that the title is meaningless, I think that its still quite important morale-wise, especially if your peers of the same batch are being made up and you wonder why you aren't.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thanks all for your responses! I was the original poster who asked the qn.

Of Counsel is only an A&G thing? Based on what I know from some seniors/contacts. I don't think other Big 4 firms employ the Of Counsel rank as an in-between SA and JP, but I suppose this trend may catch on.

As a senior associate, I would probably leave the firm if I don't get made JP within a reasonable time and go to a smaller firm that is willing to. While some may say that the title is meaningless, I think that its still quite important morale-wise, especially if your peers of the same batch are being made up and you wonder why you aren't.

So smaller firms tend to be less hierarchical. And the partner in a smaller firm is technically a rain maker job. Whereas in the big firm you still have Junior partner or salaried partner.
In the international firms, the differentiation is even greater. Most people will end up as senior associate for a very long time and rarely make it to of counsel.
Of counsel in the big 4 is quite a new thing, started at most 1-2 years ago. So the seniors wouldn’t know much

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So smaller firms tend to be less hierarchical. And the partner in a smaller firm is technically a rain maker job. Whereas in the big firm you still have Junior partner or salaried partner.
In the international firms, the differentiation is even greater. Most people will end up as senior associate for a very long time and rarely make it to of counsel.
Of counsel in the big 4 is quite a new thing, started at most 1-2 years ago. So the seniors wouldn’t know much

Really interested to hear what are some of the reasons a SA at an international firm choose to stay where they are, when their peers at a big 4 firm may have already become JPs. Am speculating here (and would love to hear others’ views) but is it because the title of “partner” becomes less important when the international firm pays more and is it also perhaps due to a declined interest in making equity partner?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Really interested to hear what are some of the reasons a SA at an international firm choose to stay where they are, when their peers at a big 4 firm may have already become JPs. Am speculating here (and would love to hear others’ views) but is it because the title of “partner” becomes less important when the international firm pays more and is it also perhaps due to a declined interest in making equity partner?

They earn more and know that they can't make partner in big 4