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  #13591 (permalink)  
Old 15-09-2021, 10:43 PM
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Hey there,

I'm a law graduate from Monash, obtained a FCH and graduated July 2020. Completed by RLT with a boutique litigation firm that's an Asian Legal Business finalist/other awards in Benchmark Litigation/Chambers/Straits Times Survey on Singapore's best law firms, and got retained for a TC midway through my RLT. I sat for and passed Part A of the bar exams in June 2021, and am taking the Part B course currently, due to sit for the exams in December 2021.

I applied for RLTs in October 2019. Might have been a tad late, but I did apply for 3 out of the Big 4 firms. I got rejected by all of them. Maybe it might have something to do with my late application, or maybe the 'impression' that firms have of Australian graduates in general aren't too good. I can't give you a definite answer on that.

However, having a sense of friends who've interned at places like TSMP Law, they've heard partners make comments in passing about the purported 'low quality' of Aus graduates. This spurred many of my friends to want to stay in Aus for as long as possible to seek out graduate roles because of the perceived discrimination against Aus grads vis-a-vis UK or SG grads.

I for one, applied late for RLTs because I actually obtained a clerkship offer at a mid-sized full service firm in Melbourne. (FYI- summer clerkships are basically a one month structured internship program where clerks obtain working experience in law and simultaneously get assessed for their potential as graduate lawyers). I was offered a part-time paralegal role after the completion of my clerkship (together with one of my clerkship buddies who later went on to become a graduate lawyer at the firm). Unfortunately, being an international student and the visa restrictions and uncertainty that goes with it can set you back. COVID struck in early 2020, and my part-time paralegal offer got rescinded due to budget cuts. That set my mind to coming back to Singapore.

I think it's not healthy to think of a law degree as a object with a 'ROI'. My family is pretty middle class, we're not well-to-do, live in a 5 room HDB in the North. But I'm eternally grateful to my parents for giving me the overseas experience notwithstanding that the total costs of my education did rise to the 200k figure thereabouts.

What's important is that your nephew truly has a passion for the law. Perhaps start out with doing legal internships at the various government ministries/private law firms. That can give him a taste of what legal practice is like. If your nephew is also someone keen on current affairs and public policy, I think law is a perfect degree to nurture those interests. Granted, one can do a degree in Political Science or Sociology at the local universities, but hey with a law degree you can effectively do similar jobs, if not more. I know that's what spurred me to do law in the first place.

By way of further background, I obtained a UES of 83.75/90 for my A Levels. Not too shabby but not the best either. I did not get offers from NUS Law or SMU Law, but was offered Business/Economics/FASS instead. I followed my heart and decided I'd do law anyway. And I have my parents to thank for being supportive. I had offers from Birmingham and Nottingham as well, but ultimately chose Monash because I had family in Melbourne who lived near to uni (10 mins drive).

I enjoyed my 4 years at Monash and will look back on that period as the best time of my life. I found the motivation to study, and yet found time to balance it out with road trips, brunches etc. I took interest in my subjects because of engaging tutors and how the modules spoke to my inner interests.

As for my other friends in Aus, I know one who graduated from Murdoch with a FCH. Got rejected for all the TC apps he sent in. But he didn't let that affect who he was and his capabilities. Today, he's a Solicitor at the State Solicitor's Office of Western Australia, giving legal advice to Mark McGowan's WA government. I think that's impressive.

Don't let anyone tell your nephew what he is or isn't capable of. But tell him to follow his heart. I can't say I'm a success per se, and am still finding my feet and place in the legal industry here in Singapore. But I'll try to keep the flame that spurred me to do well in uni alive, and carry on that passion in practice. Hopefully I'll survive long enough.

I'm also grateful that at my firm, I have partners who were Australian-educated and are role models in my eyes. They are performing exceptionally and are living proof of the fact that while where you graduate from is important in making that first step to a dream job, what keeps you going long-term after isn't the qualifications. It's the skills, humility and willingness to learn and fight in the trenches. There are also quite a few Aus partners/senior associates/associates in the industry, albeit not as many as the local/UK-educated ones.

I hope this answers your question with some personal experiences of my own.
i'm not the person that this post was directed to but I think if it's true then it's a great post - rare to find sincerity on this forum.

Anyway, to that person this post was directed to or people in similar situations, I agree with OP that thinking in ROI terms is not really the way to go unless that's really what you really think is the point of it all based on all your life experience. I'm not saying that it's wrong in all cases, but I certainly think people can afford to be more imaginative.

And to anyone with serious concerns - you can try looking up linkedin, you'll see profiles of where people studied and where they are at, and everything in between. All sorts of people in practice and industry coming from all sorts of universities. Chat with them or ask them out for a coffee, you'll be surprised. I certainly don't mind (not that I'm going to dox myself).

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  #13592 (permalink)  
Old 15-09-2021, 11:22 PM
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second sentence alr got typo. Nice FCH.
cut it lax on OP dude, this is a forum, not a letter of demand or affidavit to court lol

I think these conversations are rare to find on this forum. Feel good stuff!

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  #13593 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Hey there,

I'm a law graduate from Monash, obtained a FCH and graduated July 2020. Completed by RLT with a boutique litigation firm that's an Asian Legal Business finalist/other awards in Benchmark Litigation/Chambers/Straits Times Survey on Singapore's best law firms, and got retained for a TC midway through my RLT. I sat for and passed Part A of the bar exams in June 2021, and am taking the Part B course currently, due to sit for the exams in December 2021.

I applied for RLTs in October 2019. Might have been a tad late, but I did apply for 3 out of the Big 4 firms. I got rejected by all of them. Maybe it might have something to do with my late application, or maybe the 'impression' that firms have of Australian graduates in general aren't too good. I can't give you a definite answer on that.

However, having a sense of friends who've interned at places like TSMP Law, they've heard partners make comments in passing about the purported 'low quality' of Aus graduates. This spurred many of my friends to want to stay in Aus for as long as possible to seek out graduate roles because of the perceived discrimination against Aus grads vis-a-vis UK or SG grads.

I for one, applied late for RLTs because I actually obtained a clerkship offer at a mid-sized full service firm in Melbourne. (FYI- summer clerkships are basically a one month structured internship program where clerks obtain working experience in law and simultaneously get assessed for their potential as graduate lawyers). I was offered a part-time paralegal role after the completion of my clerkship (together with one of my clerkship buddies who later went on to become a graduate lawyer at the firm). Unfortunately, being an international student and the visa restrictions and uncertainty that goes with it can set you back. COVID struck in early 2020, and my part-time paralegal offer got rescinded due to budget cuts. That set my mind to coming back to Singapore.

I think it's not healthy to think of a law degree as a object with a 'ROI'. My family is pretty middle class, we're not well-to-do, live in a 5 room HDB in the North. But I'm eternally grateful to my parents for giving me the overseas experience notwithstanding that the total costs of my education did rise to the 200k figure thereabouts.

What's important is that your nephew truly has a passion for the law. Perhaps start out with doing legal internships at the various government ministries/private law firms. That can give him a taste of what legal practice is like. If your nephew is also someone keen on current affairs and public policy, I think law is a perfect degree to nurture those interests. Granted, one can do a degree in Political Science or Sociology at the local universities, but hey with a law degree you can effectively do similar jobs, if not more. I know that's what spurred me to do law in the first place.

By way of further background, I obtained a UES of 83.75/90 for my A Levels. Not too shabby but not the best either. I did not get offers from NUS Law or SMU Law, but was offered Business/Economics/FASS instead. I followed my heart and decided I'd do law anyway. And I have my parents to thank for being supportive. I had offers from Birmingham and Nottingham as well, but ultimately chose Monash because I had family in Melbourne who lived near to uni (10 mins drive).

I enjoyed my 4 years at Monash and will look back on that period as the best time of my life. I found the motivation to study, and yet found time to balance it out with road trips, brunches etc. I took interest in my subjects because of engaging tutors and how the modules spoke to my inner interests.

As for my other friends in Aus, I know one who graduated from Murdoch with a FCH. Got rejected for all the TC apps he sent in. But he didn't let that affect who he was and his capabilities. Today, he's a Solicitor at the State Solicitor's Office of Western Australia, giving legal advice to Mark McGowan's WA government. I think that's impressive.

Don't let anyone tell your nephew what he is or isn't capable of. But tell him to follow his heart. I can't say I'm a success per se, and am still finding my feet and place in the legal industry here in Singapore. But I'll try to keep the flame that spurred me to do well in uni alive, and carry on that passion in practice. Hopefully I'll survive long enough.

I'm also grateful that at my firm, I have partners who were Australian-educated and are role models in my eyes. They are performing exceptionally and are living proof of the fact that while where you graduate from is important in making that first step to a dream job, what keeps you going long-term after isn't the qualifications. It's the skills, humility and willingness to learn and fight in the trenches. There are also quite a few Aus partners/senior associates/associates in the industry, albeit not as many as the local/UK-educated ones.

I hope this answers your question with some personal experiences of my own.
I know who you are. You're a very nice person, both inside and outside of this anonymous forum. I won't bust your cover.

Sincere and helpful as always.

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  #13594 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 03:49 AM
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cut it lax on OP dude, this is a forum, not a letter of demand or affidavit to court lol

I think these conversations are rare to find on this forum. Feel good stuff!
Excellent post.

To the guy who corrected his typo - seriously?

I know who OP is. Don't worry, I won't reveal who, but this person is also really helpful and sincere irl.
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  #13595 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 07:45 AM
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Excellent post.

To the guy who corrected his typo - seriously?

I know who OP is. Don't worry, I won't reveal who, but this person is also really helpful and sincere irl.
Agree to disagree. Dude started the entire thing with 2 paragraphs of humble bragging. Would like to think, despite being on an online forum, simple mistakes like typo (at the beginning) could be easily spotted and corrected. Just my two cents.
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  #13596 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 12:17 PM
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Agree to disagree. Dude started the entire thing with 2 paragraphs of humble bragging. Would like to think, despite being on an online forum, simple mistakes like typo (at the beginning) could be easily spotted and corrected. Just my two cents.
He humble-bragged? to be honest, if i dont see oxbridge, its not a “brag” at all. Even NUS fch or deans list, hahahaha


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  #13597 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 12:22 PM
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Oxbridge big meh
Rmb in lky time don’t need to apply what ucas
lky just have to talk to the tutor to take him from lse, then did the same to take on his then gf
Like u appear in the city and talk to tutor can alr
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  #13598 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Hey there,

I'm a law graduate from Monash, obtained a FCH and graduated July 2020. Completed by RLT with a boutique litigation firm that's an Asian Legal Business finalist/other awards in Benchmark Litigation/Chambers/Straits Times Survey on Singapore's best law firms, and got retained for a TC midway through my RLT. I sat for and passed Part A of the bar exams in June 2021, and am taking the Part B course currently, due to sit for the exams in December 2021.

I applied for RLTs in October 2019. Might have been a tad late, but I did apply for 3 out of the Big 4 firms. I got rejected by all of them. Maybe it might have something to do with my late application, or maybe the 'impression' that firms have of Australian graduates in general aren't too good. I can't give you a definite answer on that.

However, having a sense of friends who've interned at places like TSMP Law, they've heard partners make comments in passing about the purported 'low quality' of Aus graduates. This spurred many of my friends to want to stay in Aus for as long as possible to seek out graduate roles because of the perceived discrimination against Aus grads vis-a-vis UK or SG grads.

I for one, applied late for RLTs because I actually obtained a clerkship offer at a mid-sized full service firm in Melbourne. (FYI- summer clerkships are basically a one month structured internship program where clerks obtain working experience in law and simultaneously get assessed for their potential as graduate lawyers). I was offered a part-time paralegal role after the completion of my clerkship (together with one of my clerkship buddies who later went on to become a graduate lawyer at the firm). Unfortunately, being an international student and the visa restrictions and uncertainty that goes with it can set you back. COVID struck in early 2020, and my part-time paralegal offer got rescinded due to budget cuts. That set my mind to coming back to Singapore.

I think it's not healthy to think of a law degree as a object with a 'ROI'. My family is pretty middle class, we're not well-to-do, live in a 5 room HDB in the North. But I'm eternally grateful to my parents for giving me the overseas experience notwithstanding that the total costs of my education did rise to the 200k figure thereabouts.

What's important is that your nephew truly has a passion for the law. Perhaps start out with doing legal internships at the various government ministries/private law firms. That can give him a taste of what legal practice is like. If your nephew is also someone keen on current affairs and public policy, I think law is a perfect degree to nurture those interests. Granted, one can do a degree in Political Science or Sociology at the local universities, but hey with a law degree you can effectively do similar jobs, if not more. I know that's what spurred me to do law in the first place.

By way of further background, I obtained a UES of 83.75/90 for my A Levels. Not too shabby but not the best either. I did not get offers from NUS Law or SMU Law, but was offered Business/Economics/FASS instead. I followed my heart and decided I'd do law anyway. And I have my parents to thank for being supportive. I had offers from Birmingham and Nottingham as well, but ultimately chose Monash because I had family in Melbourne who lived near to uni (10 mins drive).

I enjoyed my 4 years at Monash and will look back on that period as the best time of my life. I found the motivation to study, and yet found time to balance it out with road trips, brunches etc. I took interest in my subjects because of engaging tutors and how the modules spoke to my inner interests.

As for my other friends in Aus, I know one who graduated from Murdoch with a FCH. Got rejected for all the TC apps he sent in. But he didn't let that affect who he was and his capabilities. Today, he's a Solicitor at the State Solicitor's Office of Western Australia, giving legal advice to Mark McGowan's WA government. I think that's impressive.

Don't let anyone tell your nephew what he is or isn't capable of. But tell him to follow his heart. I can't say I'm a success per se, and am still finding my feet and place in the legal industry here in Singapore. But I'll try to keep the flame that spurred me to do well in uni alive, and carry on that passion in practice. Hopefully I'll survive long enough.

I'm also grateful that at my firm, I have partners who were Australian-educated and are role models in my eyes. They are performing exceptionally and are living proof of the fact that while where you graduate from is important in making that first step to a dream job, what keeps you going long-term after isn't the qualifications. It's the skills, humility and willingness to learn and fight in the trenches. There are also quite a few Aus partners/senior associates/associates in the industry, albeit not as many as the local/UK-educated ones.

I hope this answers your question with some personal experiences of my own.
Hello, thank you for sharing your experience on the forum.

It is a shame that there is a strong bias against AU grads in the SG market. We are looking at Uni Melb and USYD because of their comparable top rankings against NUS over the years.

I see that many are commenting on the point that I made about ROI. Just to clarify, as a lender, my role is to know if the money can be made worthwhile. I think many parents have also gone through this phase of evaluation. Of course, for the student (nephew in my case), the emphasis is on the passion etc. But as a young adult, it is only fair that he learns to appreciate the money and not see it as a given just because there is a potential for higher earnings or a step towards a career with a labelled prestige.

Is there also a bias against people from delisted schools? Since the bias against AU graduates are there, perhaps I would advise him to seek out other degrees or to speak with people who were from AU or delisted schools on how they are surviving in the industry if he insists on going down this path.

Yes, his interest is in international relations. But within the family, we are strongly opposing against these courses. Law is the most practical of all courses that is not STEM or commerce.
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  #13599 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 01:19 PM
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Hello, thank you for sharing your experience on the forum.

It is a shame that there is a strong bias against AU grads in the SG market. We are looking at Uni Melb and USYD because of their comparable top rankings against NUS over the years.

I see that many are commenting on the point that I made about ROI. Just to clarify, as a lender, my role is to know if the money can be made worthwhile. I think many parents have also gone through this phase of evaluation. Of course, for the student (nephew in my case), the emphasis is on the passion etc. But as a young adult, it is only fair that he learns to appreciate the money and not see it as a given just because there is a potential for higher earnings or a step towards a career with a labelled prestige.

Is there also a bias against people from delisted schools? Since the bias against AU graduates are there, perhaps I would advise him to seek out other degrees or to speak with people who were from AU or delisted schools on how they are surviving in the industry if he insists on going down this path.

Yes, his interest is in international relations. But within the family, we are strongly opposing against these courses. Law is the most practical of all courses that is not STEM or commerce.
Honest truth is that if you stay in SG with aussie degree, you're likely gonna be a 2nd class citizen, whereas aussie firms/UK firms look on Unimelb and Usyd alot more favourably, especially Aussie firms.

If his interest is in int relations, you should just let him take it. Otherwise, it's likely he's taking law so that he can pivot to minlaw or MFA to be a diplomat etc, which would be the same as getting an int relations degree and doing it, except you're spending 200k.
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  #13600 (permalink)  
Old 16-09-2021, 01:42 PM
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Agree to disagree. Dude started the entire thing with 2 paragraphs of humble bragging. Would like to think, despite being on an online forum, simple mistakes like typo (at the beginning) could be easily spotted and corrected. Just my two cents.
Which part of "FCH from Monash" and "boutique litigation firm that's an Asian Legal Business finalist/other awards in Benchmark Litigation/Chambers/Straits Times Survey" is humble bragging?

FCH from an Aussie uni is nothing spectacular. And any law firm that needs to cite its "Straits Times Survey" award is obviously not a top firm. That's like me padding my CV with "secondary school best class monitor award".

If you think those are bragworthy achievements...
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