Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just pay up and let's get this forum back on track.

What's the pay scale for mid tier law firm junior partners like in SLB, CNP, RHT?

Why would you even bother with mid tier law firms?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Why would you even bother with mid tier law firms?

Go and ask all the 5000 lawyers not practising in Big 4 or internationals lor. Why do they even bother to practise where they are.

Why don't pack up and call it a day and go drive Grab or be insurance agent. Better than being a JP in a mid tier right.

What is the difference in salary between mid-size and a big 4 firm? Are the hours different or the same as well?

Thought I'd share some perspective on the shift from intern/law student to trainee. For context, I'm training at an int'l (jlv/fla) firm.

1. Assisting on work:

Firstly, I thought I'd share that I don't really need to ask for work anymore. My seniors all involve me, and I realise that I actually have to be damn sure my work is correct and accurate because the risk of them getting grilled based on my mistakes is super real. It's not like being an intern where you once you do one piece of work, you're done. As a trainee, once you finish a piece of work- it's onto the next step. If you get given work, it's usually a good indicator that they don't mind you assisting them. If you don't get as much work or get fluffy stuff, that's usually not a good sign.

2. Dynamics with lawyers/counterparts

Second, I notice that your supervisors also treat you on a more-equal footing (theyre training you to be another them), or at the very least with some respect/no patronisation. You're not just an "intern" anymore, you're a trainee. There's some leeway for mistakes, but if they teach you something or give you feedback, you learn to not make that mistake again (or risk being less trusted by them). They feels exciting and good, but of course it is something I definitely take seriously and carefully.

On the external side, I was involved in meetings against one of the firms I interned at previously. It's quite enlightening and even a bit strange how different the dynamics are now that you're actually a "part" of a firm. The other side's lawyers (my former intern supervisors) actually treat you pretty seriously and you have to be cautious with them now that you are subject to your professional obligations, for example having to watch them or check their docs to make sure they're not trying to be snakey.

Also, being a trainee where I'm at, I actually am grateful that I didn't be part of my former intern firm's team- because it's only from dealing with them as a counterpart that you start to see their true nature. Also, I notice that trainees at big4 firms dont really get to be front-facing with clients/counters in contrast to int'l firms. That's just my observation, but I may be wrong.

Pretty enlightening experience.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thought I'd share some perspective on the shift from intern/law student to trainee. For context, I'm training at an int'l (jlv/fla) firm.

1. Assisting on work:

Firstly, I thought I'd share that I don't really need to ask for work anymore. My seniors all involve me, and I realise that I actually have to be damn sure my work is correct and accurate because the risk of them getting grilled based on my mistakes is super real. It's not like being an intern where you once you do one piece of work, you're done. As a trainee, once you finish a piece of work- it's onto the next step. If you get given work, it's usually a good indicator that they don't mind you assisting them. If you don't get as much work or get fluffy stuff, that's usually not a good sign.

2. Dynamics with lawyers/counterparts

Second, I notice that your supervisors also treat you on a more-equal footing (theyre training you to be another them), or at the very least with some respect/no patronisation. You're not just an "intern" anymore, you're a trainee. There's some leeway for mistakes, but if they teach you something or give you feedback, you learn to not make that mistake again (or risk being less trusted by them). They feels exciting and good, but of course it is something I definitely take seriously and carefully.

On the external side, I was involved in meetings against one of the firms I interned at previously. It's quite enlightening and even a bit strange how different the dynamics are now that you're actually a "part" of a firm. The other side's lawyers (my former intern supervisors) actually treat you pretty seriously and you have to be cautious with them now that you are subject to your professional obligations, for example having to watch them or check their docs to make sure they're not trying to be snakey.

Also, being a trainee where I'm at, I actually am grateful that I didn't be part of my former intern firm's team- because it's only from dealing with them as a counterpart that you start to see their true nature. Also, I notice that trainees at big4 firms dont really get to be front-facing with clients/counters in contrast to int'l firms. That's just my observation, but I may be wrong.

Pretty enlightening experience.

So you’re at the SG side of the JV?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So you’re at the SG side of the JV?

OP here. Thought I'd take this time to answer your question since I feel it's something most people don't really understand.

Regardless of whether one eventually qualifies into the int'l side or sg side, all practice trainees of fla/jlv firms MUST do their practice training contract in the singapore entity - for regulatory purposes. The firms literally can't take you into the int'l side as a trainee (bar some rlt trainees) because this requirement is prescribed by minlaw/the regulations.

The above is subject to you training to be qualified as a sg lawyer. Of course there are firms which take on graduates to do the E&W route - which has its own challenges (i.e. low intake in a small number of firms, additional time burden, need to do practice areas which are many times outside of your control). Although many people on this forum like to worship such firms for "exit prospects", I would counter-argue that on a practical real-life thought process, I'd rather do what I like (e.g. corp m&a) for 2.5 years rather than rotate through banking, disputes, ip/employment, etc etc. which would be a drain.

Now, continuing on back on track to as a practice trainee completing your tc at a fla/jlv firm (assuming it is actually an international firm which engages cross-border work), then depending on training/qualification structions, headcount and need/opportunity (as well as any additional qualifications that you have, predominantly common-law based, esp in the key markets), then the firm may actually have a space for you in their int'l arm. This is where being additionally-qualified in a key market would enable the firm to park you in their int'l arm - assuming they have a need/opportunity to do so.

I realise that this may not be particularly helpful. But one thing I would say is that regardless of whether you are parked at the int'l arm or sg arm, many times even if you qualify into the sg arm, you are STILL working on cross-border matters- by virtue that the partners you are working for are working on those matters, and you are assisting them. So, assuming you actually get put on such files, your would be satisfied with your earnings as it comes from the profits of the matters you work on (i.e. if they are really cross-border, or high-value sea/sg deals, then you earn a lot no matter where you are).

Therefore, it's not so reductionistic as "if you are in sg arm of int'l firm, then you are paid less than big4" because this is not true for ALL flas/jlvs as noted above. Although, I suppose if you are unhappy with your salary as a NQ of the sg arm of a fla/jlv, then I suppose you could always apply to join an int'l entity subject to their need (which your actual exerience working on cross-border deals would prove marketable, by virtue that you actually work on those matters).

This is a long post, but I'm not for sorry for being long-winded. Some things need to be clarified, because there's a lot of nonsense in this salary forum thread.

Anyone know the pay and trainee retention rate at bird & bird? Heard it's good for IP, what about corp side? Thanks

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Go and ask all the 5000 lawyers not practising in Big 4 or internationals lor. Why do they even bother to practise where they are.

Why don't pack up and call it a day and go drive Grab or be insurance agent. Better than being a JP in a mid tier right.

Top insurance agents make more than JPs in a mid-tier firm

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Top insurance agents make more than JPs in a mid-tier firm

Peter Tan probably makes more than Davinder or K Shan in their peak. Your point being?

Average lawyer makes more than the average insurance agent.
A top lawyer makes more than a top insurance agent.