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  #991 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2020, 07:05 PM
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Let's look from this angle, the average starting salary for CS grads is 5k.
The companies have a few options.
1. Believe they can get better value from experienced hire with the 5k salary, won't hire any fresh grads.
2. Always need a pipeline of decent fresh grads, willing to pay the market rates for these fresh grads.
3. Always need a pipeline of decent fresh grads, but unwilling to pay the market rates. Put up a lower package and hope for surplus of fresh grads.
4. Always need a pipeline of fresh grads of any standard, unwilling to pay the market rates. Pay the bare minimum just maintain the pipeline.

Be glad ST is going with #2. The worse it can do is #4, which it can pretty much cement its poor reputation in the labour market.

Seriously, in this market now, if you're a senior engineer who is still stuck with 5k salary, you can only blame yourself.

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  #992 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2020, 09:17 PM
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Fresh grad expects 5k starting pay. And 1k annual increment? And 5 months bonus right?
because fresh grads can only compete with other fresh grads in the market so the pool is much smaller compared to a senior position where you not only have to compete with singaporeans but also foreign talents that can replace you at a much lower rate. The fresh grad salary is also highly tagged towards the inflation rate due to demand > supply for now.

I think the issue is not fresh grads getting high starting salary but more of the companies not increasing the senior employee's salary. But then again, are the seniors worth their salary if foreigners can easily do their jobs at a lower rate?

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  #993 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2020, 09:51 PM
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Let's look from this angle, the average starting salary for CS grads is 5k.
The companies have a few options.
1. Believe they can get better value from experienced hire with the 5k salary, won't hire any fresh grads.
2. Always need a pipeline of decent fresh grads, willing to pay the market rates for these fresh grads.
3. Always need a pipeline of decent fresh grads, but unwilling to pay the market rates. Put up a lower package and hope for surplus of fresh grads.
4. Always need a pipeline of fresh grads of any standard, unwilling to pay the market rates. Pay the bare minimum just maintain the pipeline.

Be glad ST is going with #2. The worse it can do is #4, which it can pretty much cement its poor reputation in the labour market.

Seriously, in this market now, if you're a senior engineer who is still stuck with 5k salary, you can only blame yourself.
Sadly... ST is doing #2 and #4 wrongly as my side...

I have seen quite a few of them leaving the organization within 1 year where they belong to group #2 but being paid with salary of #4.
Of course not to mention... There's also people on the other way round too where they are highly paid but couldn't produce decent output...
End of the day... still back to the point of HR being inexperienced in looking at portfolio which the priorize local degree grades rather than looking into details such as skillsets and traits.
(E.g an aerospace grad being paid around 20%-30% higher than a comp science private uni fresh grad in a programming related role. Ended up the most job was being given to the comp science graduate and he quitted eventually knowing that his peer salary when doing minimal tasks.)

I dont care how much fresh grad are being paid but what matters most is that we have capable entering the organization to share the burden of the overloaded tasks given to limited pool of technical inclined personnel we have in the organization.

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  #994 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2020, 10:53 PM
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Sadly... ST is doing #2 and #4 wrongly as my side...

I have seen quite a few of them leaving the organization within 1 year where they belong to group #2 but being paid with salary of #4.
Of course not to mention... There's also people on the other way round too where they are highly paid but couldn't produce decent output...
End of the day... still back to the point of HR being inexperienced in looking at portfolio which the priorize local degree grades rather than looking into details such as skillsets and traits.
(E.g an aerospace grad being paid around 20%-30% higher than a comp science private uni fresh grad in a programming related role. Ended up the most job was being given to the comp science graduate and he quitted eventually knowing that his peer salary when doing minimal tasks.)

I dont care how much fresh grad are being paid but what matters most is that we have capable entering the organization to share the burden of the overloaded tasks given to limited pool of technical inclined personnel we have in the organization.
No matter how many capable people entering ST will not be sufficient to share the overloaded task. Organization too top heavy, middle management don't wanna do / can't do technical stuffs, all throw to Junior Engineers. Junior Engineers no progression due to top heavy structure, no career progression, no salary increment. Sooner or later will leave.

Middle/senior management too comfortable in position, after farming and enduring for X years finally drawing a decent amount of salary with old time benefits. Work hard draw $Y amount, chill and relax also draw $Y amount. Why work so hard? With their skill set & management skills can't find job elsewhere too. Therefore, hogging onto a lot of positions.

Why incur cost to re-structure from 4 sectors to 2 clusters with 7 different business areas in this pandemic? To create more positions at the senior management level. Else how to accommodate the so top heavy structure?
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  #995 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2020, 11:30 PM
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because fresh grads can only compete with other fresh grads in the market so the pool is much smaller compared to a senior position where you not only have to compete with singaporeans but also foreign talents that can replace you at a much lower rate. The fresh grad salary is also highly tagged towards the inflation rate due to demand > supply for now.

I think the issue is not fresh grads getting high starting salary but more of the companies not increasing the senior employee's salary. But then again, are the seniors worth their salary if foreigners can easily do their jobs at a lower rate?
But then again, are the fresh grads worth their salary if experienced foreigners can easily do their jobs at a lower rate?
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  #996 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2020, 11:42 PM
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No matter how many capable people entering ST will not be sufficient to share the overloaded task. Organization too top heavy, middle management don't wanna do / can't do technical stuffs, all throw to Junior Engineers. Junior Engineers no progression due to top heavy structure, no career progression, no salary increment. Sooner or later will leave.

Middle/senior management too comfortable in position, after farming and enduring for X years finally drawing a decent amount of salary with old time benefits. Work hard draw $Y amount, chill and relax also draw $Y amount. Why work so hard? With their skill set & management skills can't find job elsewhere too. Therefore, hogging onto a lot of positions.

Why incur cost to re-structure from 4 sectors to 2 clusters with 7 different business areas in this pandemic? To create more positions at the senior management level. Else how to accommodate the so top heavy structure?
Well, no matter what, if you are still an engineer inside, won't you appreciate better if your HR gives you a peer that is more fitting to the role and will more likely to share your burden than giving you someone where you potentially have to spoon-feed him for quite a good period of time.

I understand that career progression is much harder now, where you must have what it takes to proof your worth instead of what happened in the past where people could just get promote after servicing X years in a certain role.
End of the day, I've seen someone jumping 2 employment grades within 3 years since joining...
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  #997 (permalink)  
Old 25-11-2020, 08:03 AM
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because fresh grads can only compete with other fresh grads in the market so the pool is much smaller compared to a senior position where you not only have to compete with singaporeans but also foreign talents that can replace you at a much lower rate. The fresh grad salary is also highly tagged towards the inflation rate due to demand > supply for now.

I think the issue is not fresh grads getting high starting salary but more of the companies not increasing the senior employee's salary. But then again, are the seniors worth their salary if foreigners can easily do their jobs at a lower rate?
2018 fresh grad starting pay 3.5k
2020 fresh grad starting pay 5k

I think the 2018 fresh grad who is 2 years exp now not even 5k if based on am annual average increment of 5%. Should only be around 3.8k but assume star performer. Still only barely 4k...
Which is also consistent with many 2 to 3 years experience tech staff atm.

Fresh grad starting pay 5k.
He better have tonnes of valuable skills.
Maybe he can deliver a scalable, fault tolerant no signal loss, real time system in 1 months.
I bet he don't even know how or where to begin

Then expect senior to teach or guide. Or worst, provide solution.
Sorry. Fresh grad is overpaid. Nothing to teach. The fresh grad can do all the work and take all the risk.
We senior can eat snake at work heheand go home play with our children.
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  #998 (permalink)  
Old 25-11-2020, 08:10 AM
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Aiya blame the government and media la.
They pushing for tech boom.

Werkd that the tech boom was supposed to be in 2000 millennium.
Took 20 years to catch up haha
All the techie now 20 years experience found their skills obsolete

Quite sad. Tech is an exciting and thriving industry but it is both gruesome and unforgiving.
Its oka la

This year fresh grad will be tomorrows senior.
Maybe when their time. Their new batch of fresh grad probably starting pay 6k liao

Good what. Get fresh grad let them do all the work. Senior can relax.
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  #999 (permalink)  
Old 25-11-2020, 08:14 AM
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Sadly... ST is doing #2 and #4 wrongly as my side...

I have seen quite a few of them leaving the organization within 1 year where they belong to group #2 but being paid with salary of #4.
Of course not to mention... There's also people on the other way round too where they are highly paid but couldn't produce decent output...
End of the day... still back to the point of HR being inexperienced in looking at portfolio which the priorize local degree grades rather than looking into details such as skillsets and traits.
(E.g an aerospace grad being paid around 20%-30% higher than a comp science private uni fresh grad in a programming related role. Ended up the most job was being given to the comp science graduate and he quitted eventually knowing that his peer salary when doing minimal tasks.)

I dont care how much fresh grad are being paid but what matters most is that we have capable entering the organization to share the burden of the overloaded tasks given to limited pool of inclined technical personnel we have in the organization.
Agreed if you on this, on the other hand. I think what matters is also the attitude and willingness to learn as a fresh grad. I have seen newly joined fresh grads (local U) lacking the proactiveness, giving the heck care attitude, and even being egoistical on making the smallest mistakes on top of being non-technical.
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  #1000 (permalink)  
Old 25-11-2020, 08:51 AM
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Agreed if you on this, on the other hand. I think what matters is also the attitude and willingness to learn as a fresh grad. I have seen newly joined fresh grads (local U) lacking the proactiveness, giving the heck care attitude, and even being egoistical on making the smallest mistakes on top of being non-technical.
Well, I fresh grad was offered only 3.5k in the old scheme. My counterpart getting 5k.
I show up to work and warm the seat is good enough.
No need proactiveness. Senior can do the work.
I just log my hours. And leave when there is a better 5k opportunity outside.
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