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  #9751 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 10:01 AM
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Hmmm, actually you're not wrong in describing the fact that most GEO5 are still fulfilling the basic requirements.

But if we were to go deeper into what the younger officers are unhappy about, we gotta talk history and math.

In the past GEO3s and 4s can easily promote within 3-4 years by fulfilling basic requirements at their grade. However for now by only doing the baseline work, promotion can only occur within 7-8 years (although guys may experience a shorter wait).

This also means that in the past, officers can reach GEO5 earlier. The cumulative wait for current officers (as they progress from GEO3 to 5) will be longer by about 5-10 years.

For current officers to progress faster, they will need to go beyond their baseline work. Volunteer for events. Initiate and lead for certain projects. Such things were probably not required as much in the past. Hence now most GEO3 and 4 are working beyond their scope. To some extent, some of these work may have been pushed down by the GEO5s who have already attained a comfortable salary. Why would they still need to go beyond their scope when they have already reached their max grade?

Hence the trend of many GEO5 rejecting and pushing extra workload downwards started. In the past, officers can hit GEO5 as early as 35 years old, and hit the ceiling in their 40s. Now...probably gotta add 10 years to each number.

Actually there's an even more worrying trend now. The vicious cycle of resignations within the GEO3 and 4 has forced GEO5 officers to take on more roles and a lot of them are unhappy about it, also leading to more GEO5 "retiring early". And there are hardly any replacements for all of these GEO3 to 5 who are leaving.

And the official message from people above is still

"Oh your school staff strength is still healthy"
"Oh your school can still afford to cut manpower"
"Just merge two low ability classes let one teacher teach"
"Your workload is still below the official threshold, can still take one more class"
One more problem is that while MOE HR (probably under the pressure from PSD) is aggressively working to reduce EO headcount, the total amount of work taken up by the Education Service has not reduced. In fact, in some domains, it probably has increased. Too many sacred cows that can't even be touched.

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  #9752 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 12:23 PM
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Just hearsay tt my colleague got pb A for 3 years in a row. Is tt even possible???
I know of someone who got this before. Not a scholar, claimed to be a farmer, lol. But the grades not surprisingly la. Some schools fairly rank and reward.

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  #9753 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 02:12 PM
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Some young officers are more than capable of working at KP level despite their age, and are excelling in all their stretch assignments or even internal appointments. Too bad the average promotion rate does not adequately account for this. It seems like age is the main thing determining one's subgrade.

Yes, the panel can review CEP, and probably did for the 3x A officer, but it takes a few years for the promotion rate to respond to a CEP review.
yes many geo3 can be good managers ie KPs and thatís not unexpected when you recruit goof ppl . eg many 2nd uppers wouid be placed on good accelerated graduate trainee schemes in best private firms. but as teachers Ö they just need to be patient

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  #9754 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 02:14 PM
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How does experience matter if I see the complaints over here are that the older teachers on geo 5/5A are doing the minimum to get by? As I see it as well, the majority of the complaints from younger teachers are the slower pace of promotion and increment. We can't change the priority of the education budget but we can make trade-off to improve morale as a whole.
In this instance, staff on geo 5/5A should have mentoring roles to impart their experience to younger teachers in a positive working culture, with measurable KPI to take this effort into account.
complaints are from immature young teachers who canít accept that experience maters and not simply doing more. eg seizing on a teachable moment
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  #9755 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 10:52 PM
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Hmmm, actually you're not wrong in describing the fact that most GEO5 are still fulfilling the basic requirements.

But if we were to go deeper into what the younger officers are unhappy about, we gotta talk history and math.

In the past GEO3s and 4s can easily promote within 3-4 years by fulfilling basic requirements at their grade. However for now by only doing the baseline work, promotion can only occur within 7-8 years (although guys may experience a shorter wait).

This also means that in the past, officers can reach GEO5 earlier. The cumulative wait for current officers (as they progress from GEO3 to 5) will be longer by about 5-10 years.

For current officers to progress faster, they will need to go beyond their baseline work. Volunteer for events. Initiate and lead for certain projects. Such things were probably not required as much in the past. Hence now most GEO3 and 4 are working beyond their scope. To some extent, some of these work may have been pushed down by the GEO5s who have already attained a comfortable salary. Why would they still need to go beyond their scope when they have already reached their max grade?

Hence the trend of many GEO5 rejecting and pushing extra workload downwards started. In the past, officers can hit GEO5 as early as 35 years old, and hit the ceiling in their 40s. Now...probably gotta add 10 years to each number.

Actually there's an even more worrying trend now. The vicious cycle of resignations within the GEO3 and 4 has forced GEO5 officers to take on more roles and a lot of them are unhappy about it, also leading to more GEO5 "retiring early". And there are hardly any replacements for all of these GEO3 to 5 who are leaving.

And the official message from people above is still

"Oh your school staff strength is still healthy"
"Oh your school can still afford to cut manpower"
"Just merge two low ability classes let one teacher teach"
"Your workload is still below the official threshold, can still take one more class"
Can't you see that there is a very obvious problem?

It has nothing to do with people working according to their job description.

The problem is that the system now extracts unpaid labour from workers.
It is not right, ethically and legally, to expect people to work for free, to hold responsibilities above their paygrade.

We need to clearly identify which are the side effects, and which are the causes.

Ask ourselves. Are people working so hard because they want the appointment, or because they want the paygrade?

Or is it more accurate to say that people don't want to be stuck at entry level paygrades?

How many people are actually aiming for SEO paygrades? How many are actually content to be a HOT GEO5 teacher?

Time-scale positions are about being competent in the full extent of that job role.
The difference between a GEO5 and a GEO2 is that the GEO5 is more experienced, and have experience performing ALL the roles expected of an ordinary teacher.
For example, A BT restricted to performing invigilator duty while GEO5s can take on CPE duty.
Or, a BT being a junior teacher in charge of a CCA, while GEO5s serve as OICs of CCAs etc.

Many people are happy to hit GEO5 as early as possible, even if they do not promote for the rest of their career.

If someone has the competency to perform all the things in the job description of a GEO5, it does not make sense to hold back their promotion.
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  #9756 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 11:18 PM
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Just hearsay tt my colleague got pb A for 3 years in a row. Is tt even possible???
You salty? How do you know the grades also? Maybe your colleague just bluffing?


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  #9757 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2023, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Can't you see that there is a very obvious problem?

It has nothing to do with people working according to their job description.

The problem is that the system now extracts unpaid labour from workers.
It is not right, ethically and legally, to expect people to work for free, to hold responsibilities above their paygrade.

We need to clearly identify which are the side effects, and which are the causes.

Ask ourselves. Are people working so hard because they want the appointment, or because they want the paygrade?

Or is it more accurate to say that people don't want to be stuck at entry level paygrades?

How many people are actually aiming for SEO paygrades? How many are actually content to be a HOT GEO5 teacher?

Time-scale positions are about being competent in the full extent of that job role.
The difference between a GEO5 and a GEO2 is that the GEO5 is more experienced, and have experience performing ALL the roles expected of an ordinary teacher.
For example, A BT restricted to performing invigilator duty while GEO5s can take on CPE duty.
Or, a BT being a junior teacher in charge of a CCA, while GEO5s serve as OICs of CCAs etc.

Many people are happy to hit GEO5 as early as possible, even if they do not promote for the rest of their career.

If someone has the competency to perform all the things in the job description of a GEO5, it does not make sense to hold back their promotion.
If there was any decency in the system at all, there would not even be a thing called "Responsibility Allowance". Once a confirmed SH/LH/AYH/ST demonstrates that they are able to meet all the expectations of the job, for one full work year, they should be moved to SEO1 immediately after that.

How many SH/LH/AYH/ST are still GEO4 or GEO5 now, despite not falling short of any minimum expectations of their appointment?

Like you said, the system is rigged to extract additional unpaid or underpaid labour from hardworking and/or talented officers.
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  #9758 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2023, 08:40 AM
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yes many geo3 can be good managers ie KPs and thatís not unexpected when you recruit goof ppl . eg many 2nd uppers wouid be placed on good accelerated graduate trainee schemes in best private firms. but as teachers Ö they just need to be patient
Academic success =/=being a good leader. You all grouse about scholars being terrible leaders but yet make the same kind of assumptions about judging people by their academic achievements
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  #9759 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2023, 10:10 AM
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Academic success =/=being a good leader. You all grouse about scholars being terrible leaders but yet make the same kind of assumptions about judging people by their academic achievements
He didn't say that all who are academically successful make good leaders. It is however well researched that academic success correlates with whether one will take up a leadership position their job.
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  #9760 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2023, 10:24 AM
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If there was any decency in the system at all, there would not even be a thing called "Responsibility Allowance". Once a confirmed SH/LH/AYH/ST demonstrates that they are able to meet all the expectations of the job, for one full work year, they should be moved to SEO1 immediately after that.

How many SH/LH/AYH/ST are still GEO4 or GEO5 now, despite not falling short of any minimum expectations of their appointment?

Like you said, the system is rigged to extract additional unpaid or underpaid labour from hardworking and/or talented officers.
Agree on promoting these people faster, maybe yearly or 2-yearly. But not immediately to SEO1 to look for consistency... I think we all know of SH/LH who slack off once they get confirmed.
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