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  #9661 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 10:47 AM
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How do teachers get shortlisted for FHQ?
What are the requirements?
High CEP + young age (regardless of scholar/farmer status). The exact CEP and the exact age cutoff is not publicly known.

Or, received EMS or PSC scholarships and automatically emplaced on a special talent development programme, which guarantees FHQ.

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  #9662 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 11:55 AM
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Because GEO at the end of the day, is STILL a timescale grade.

GEO5s or 5A, at the end of the day, based on job description, are still ordinary classroom teachers. They are at this rank, because they have experience, and are fully capable of performing the work of an ORDINARY teacher independently without requiring additional guidance from anyone else.

GEO3 is basically for people who completed their BTship. In other words, they still have a lot of basic stuff such as workflow, T&L stuff, and administrative procedures yo learn. GEO4 is somewhere in between.

Unless someone has a serious attitude problem, it is unlikely for anyone to take so long to acquire all the knowledge expected of a GEO3.

8 years to learn the basics? Seriously?
Yes, if someone takes 8 years and can't clear that basic hurdle why do we blame the system. It really means there's something wrong with the person.

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  #9663 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 12:28 PM
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Yes, if someone takes 8 years and can't clear that basic hurdle why do we blame the system. It really means there's something wrong with the person.
If performance has been 'satisfactory' during that 8 years, why would it be that person's fault?

In 8 years (and more actually when including the geo2 years), pretty sure that officer would have been deployed in quite a number of roles, taught all the different syllabuses across levels and streams, and would have developed a fairly high level of understanding on the running of routine school level tasks (cca, school events, exam duties ie.)

Skills-wise, should be more knowledgeable than a BT.

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  #9664 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 12:29 PM
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Teachers have been "quiet quitting" even before that term existed. That is probably the only solution to the ever increasing workload.
There is no such thing as quiet quit.

It is only fair to work for what one is paid for

It is a job, not a charity.
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  #9665 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 01:07 PM
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There is no such thing as quiet quit.

It is only fair to work for what one is paid for

It is a job, not a charity.
That is why descriptions like "teaching is a calling", negatively impacts all teachers.
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  #9666 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 01:27 PM
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Yes, if someone takes 8 years and can't clear that basic hurdle why do we blame the system. It really means there's something wrong with the person.
If they can't clear the hurdle they should be given C-, D grades and placed on performance review process.

If they meet all expectations of the job of a regular classroom teacher, they should be promoted out of such a junior grade in a shorter time.

Yet there are many GEO3s who have been stuck at the grade for 8 or more years without ever being on PRP or getting a C- and below. Why? Does every GEO3 need to hold internal KP appointments before they can even smell a reasonable promotion interval? This is what I mean by shifted goalposts. Internal appointments are evolving to become the 'norm' to help good young officers avoid stagnation and hopefully retain them rather than losing them to other more promising careers.
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  #9667 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 02:22 PM
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GEO3 after 8 years? Look after we moved away from a time in service to a performance based system, people really need to stop thinking that they're entitled to a promotion just for being a warm body. In a career spanning 30+ years, if you're keen on just floating by and doing the bare minimum you must be prepared that your two promotions to Geo4 and 5 will take a longer time over those 30 years
Have a look at that table where you see that there are people who are GEO4 and even 5 after 8 years. Why do you think you deserve to get promoted over those who worked hard to get where they are, while you just want to coast. Why do YOU deserve that promotion over them?
I'm not any of the previous posters, but I just thought that I should put forth some observations in the last 2 decades or so.

10-20 years ago, spending 8 years in GEO3 is almost unheard of unless some glaring mistakes have been committed. Most officers will sail through promotions smoothly with just average C grades. This made the job a lot more attractive to fresh grads, and competitive enough to reduce job hops and resignations, and hence, reduce talent drain. Since there was a demand, people passed the interviews easily. Hiring was increased by:

- Rewarding fresh hires with lump sums
- Attracting midcareers
- Faster promotions
- Creating new higher appointments (the "newly developed" ST track was quickly occupied and saturated by officers or even ex-KPs within a few years)

Eventually this created another possible problem - too many people obtaining higher grades and appointments too quickly. These people are now the late Gen X who are GEO5s, or even STs and KPs. Since there is no brutal "termination" guideline (similar to the whole public service), many of these people hit their ceilings or get to attain high appointments quickly. Some resort to just coasting comfortably. Some older ones may delegate work downwards to younger hires to "groom them for more recognition and faster promotions".

Don't misunderstand. If we look at some of the previous posts, not all KPs are bad examples. But many who earn respect are usually the real hard workers or good managers. Your RO, usually a KP, also does play a role in determining your progression/promotion rate. They need to help you fight, and the SLs also need to agree with their proposal.

Nowadays, it seems common to take many years for just 1 promotion, even when no major mistakes have been committed. The big picture is probably guiding whoever is in control to "pull apart the bell curve" so that it doesn't get overly skewed to the right. They do not want the same phenomenon to repeat itself, to further saturate the system by:

- Greatly reducing recruitment
- Slowing promotion
- Limiting KPship or their progression
- "Encouraging" secondment to other sectors (and hopefully the officer will job hop and reduce numbers)
- Cut/tighten increments (doing it since COVID is a smart and "timely" move)
- Processing resignations more quickly

Just like how some of you have used analogies of student performance - its like how much more difficult national exams have become in recent years. Some feel that the bar needs to keep getting raised to differentiate ability and talent further.

The older Gens were "lucky" in a way - joined at a good time with high demand, fast promotions, great increments and adjustments with just average performance.

The younger Gens lost out more - overworked much but hardly any tangible returns or recognition. Bad timing, bad luck.

Technically, no one is wrong or at fault. Looking at the big picture again, certain sectors have had their own rise and fall. The tech sector is one of the best examples in recent years. As adults, everyone just has to decide which career choice is best for ourselves, especially if you're "unlucky".

Interesting fact as well - for Budget 2023, Defence is still allocated the highest budget. Education has fallen to 3rd place and overtaken by Healthcare.

Feel free to form your own opinions from these.
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  #9668 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 05:29 PM
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If performance has been 'satisfactory' during that 8 years, why would it be that person's fault?

In 8 years (and more actually when including the geo2 years), pretty sure that officer would have been deployed in quite a number of roles, taught all the different syllabuses across levels and streams, and would have developed a fairly high level of understanding on the running of routine school level tasks (cca, school events, exam duties ie.)

Skills-wise, should be more knowledgeable than a BT.
"developed a fairly high level of understanding" - > that's an assumption isn't it. Why is it hard to believe that some people remain stuck at a particular level even after all that time.

I mean let's be realistic here

1. Capable people don't join the civil service
2. Capable civil servants aren't found in the Ministry of Education

Ergo, there are some truly bottom of the barrel people who are found in MOE. Despite all their grousing, they stay in because they know that their 5k plus as a GEO3 is better than what they can get outside.
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  #9669 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 05:32 PM
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If they can't clear the hurdle they should be given C-, D grades and placed on performance review process.

If they meet all expectations of the job of a regular classroom teacher, they should be promoted out of such a junior grade in a shorter time.

Yet there are many GEO3s who have been stuck at the grade for 8 or more years without ever being on PRP or getting a C- and below. Why? Does every GEO3 need to hold internal KP appointments before they can even smell a reasonable promotion interval? This is what I mean by shifted goalposts. Internal appointments are evolving to become the 'norm' to help good young officers avoid stagnation and hopefully retain them rather than losing them to other more promising careers.
Does every GEO3 need to hold internal KP appointments before they can even smell a reasonable promotion interval - > why do you ignore that there are many others who get promoted in due course. Look at the list that gets posted once in a while for goodness sake! You have 5-8 yr officers who are in Geo4 and 5. But hey let's ignore all those and keep harping on that minority that doesn't get promoted.

In sure someone will retort that the ppl posting are scholars. But as another person pointed out, nowadays most new moe officers are scholars are some sort so that term is effectively meaningless.
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  #9670 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2023, 09:41 PM
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Does every GEO3 need to hold internal KP appointments before they can even smell a reasonable promotion interval - > why do you ignore that there are many others who get promoted in due course. Look at the list that gets posted once in a while for goodness sake! You have 5-8 yr officers who are in Geo4 and 5. But hey let's ignore all those and keep harping on that minority that doesn't get promoted.

In sure someone will retort that the ppl posting are scholars. But as another person pointed out, nowadays most new moe officers are scholars are some sort so that term is effectively meaningless.
The data here is likely skewed in a very similar way to the Graduate Employment Surveys and related salary surveys. Reporting bias. Higher achievers have a higher than average tendency to respond. The sample size is tiny away, how is it possible to assume that a thread on salary.sg is representative of any significant part of the service?

Trust me, there are a lot of people stuck unfairly at GEO3 that are more than able to function as a full-fledged teacher and contributor to the school community. Sure, they're not OYEA/PAT calibre, but they're way beyond BTs now.
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