Watching Millionaire Inside

[lazyplane]

Firstly, thank you.

Let me see if i understand what you are saying.

Is your point that she should be given chance to get the best degree available with support from her father since this will max her job potential and thus give her the max earning potential in the future ? And do you agree that 0.5 million is a lot of money ?

If so, then my question is - do parents always have to give such money to children whenever they want ? And do such children only love their parents because they give them such large amounts of money ? (i am using the word love here because you mentioned that she hates her father just because he did not give her the money to support her and to me 0.5 million is a lot of money)

My humble view is that when children start demanding huge amount of money like half a million from parents for their education, wedding, first home etc, i think parents can disagree even if they have this money. If you dont agree, well ... when you have that money, and your children starts to ask you for such large sums of money, you can prove it with your actions that you will give such money and i will be first to shake your hand to say, well done ! And I really hope your investment yields the dividends you expect.

When you are a parent, your view kind changes. You love your kid and personally, i will give a lot to my kids for them to develop qualities i think are good. But at times, i will not give in to my kid demands because i dont think that route that they have chosen (despite having a kid convinced that is the best) will develop these qualities. When such tension exist, it is hard to say who is right. But my view now is as long as i have given my kid something that is already beyond the middle class standard (and this very subjective i know) then my own personal conviction is that i have not short changed my kid. It may not be what she expected, but if she/he has what it takes, she will find a way to get what she wants without my further support. And there is only so far a responsible parent should go to support his children. Otherwise, we are just growing a bunch of spoilt rich brats with supposedly top brains but no character.

So finally, my point really is dont belittle parents for being a skinflint.

This has been a good discussion, and i think you also understand what i am saying because i have gathered you are really smart and intelligent from your replies. If i have offended you, then my sincere apologies.

I wish you well, and i know you will succeed in many things. I will hope to learn more from other such discussions, but i think i will stop here for this topic. I will happy to hear else what you have to say, but pardon me if i dont reply further. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Getting into medicine at NUS is very difficult. In fact, much more difficult than getting into medical school in the UK and could be as hard as getting into Harvard. So being a top student in a top JC is definite not "no worry". The issue isn't having a recognized degree, but a top degree.

The best employer in Singapore is no longer necessarily the Government or local firms, but the top international firms. Do you think that a foreign bank will employ a NTU accounting graduate as readily as a Wharton graduate? Do you think a top international law firm will hire a SMU Law graduate as readily as a Harvard or Cambridge Law graduate?

As for scholarship, if the father can afford the $500K, why deprive some other poor person of a scholarship? Besides, its not really a true scholarship because Government scholarships comes with forced servitude in the form of a bond. Even medical doctors are known to commit suicide over the slavery to their bonds. For some bright people, enforced work for some inept Government agencies can be torture. But yes, she is still trying for a Government scholarship even though she knows she will be bonded. Foreign universities used to give out bond-free scholarships, but these have dried up due to the global financial crisis.

But you've actually hit the nail on the head as the father thinks very similarly to you. He says that if he made it to MD at a local bank with a local degree, why should he pay for his children's foreign degree. My view is that if he can afford it he should do it because Singapore has changed and people with good foreign degrees have an advantage in life. But his nature is to be a scrooge and he won't do it. He can't take all the money with him to the grave so why not spend it on his child's dreams. I suppose with four kids, he can afford to have one of them hate him.

[lazyplane]

Well, true to a certain extent.

In my view, it more a problem with human nature natural bias than anything else.

In the past, the best paying jobs came from the rich countries in US and Europe. As such, universities overseas were also ranked highly... and definitely ranked better than the local university here.

But now the world is a bit topsy with rich countries not being so rich anymore. With time and in the future, who knows if these countries education centers will still continue to be esteemed to be best education there is if these rich countries continue to remain in such a poor state ?

A case in point, watch the china universities in the future ! I have no doubt while they are hardly ranked among the top now, they will be in the future.
And if this remains, there may be a "rush" to go to a china university by the best and brightest because that is where all the best paying jobs are.

Originally Posted by laguna

local degree is only good in Sg and not really overseas. Whereas top collegues' degrees are recognised world wide.

First of all, its half a million dollars for some medical programs in certain countries, but going to say Harvard, is about USD45K/yr or $250K for 4 years. Many Singaporeans finish in 3 years if they have A-Levels. These are not small sums to anyone, including me.

I'd also disagree that wedding, homes, cars are the same as an education at a top school. Its like the difference between investment and consumption. Also, admission to some Ivy Leagues like Harvard is need-blind i.e., if you don't have money, the University will pay your tuition and living expenses. However, if you have a rich father who refuses to pay, then you are really screwed since the University will not help you out.

I think this thought of building up character, like the way you might have been brought up poor, is a bit of a macho thing and not healthy. Just because you struggled through life, you want to impose the same pain on your children so they wont be "spoilt". I think that is terrible. These are just my values. Good day.

[whizzard]

My parents were not rich. However, when it came to education for their children, they would just spend whatever hard earned savings they had. My sister and I benefitted from this even though both of us had to take up tuition loan to supplement this.

Now, we are both doing OK in life, thanks no doubt to our parents. At this stage of our lives, we try our level best to repay the love, sacrifice and trust that our parents unquestionably lavished on us ..... I don't think it would ever be enough. The amount they spent is not a lot but in relation to what they had, it was a gamble.

When it comes to my children, I would finance them wherever they are qualified for, hoepfully it's Harvard, Oxbridge or some other Ivy league, otherwise wherever. At least, I won't have to live with any guilt of what could be. Whether there is any gratitude, hopefully their upbringing will guide them wisely.

At the end of the day, we came into this world with nothing and we will leave with nothing. We are all a transient visitor in this world and if we make a difference to as many people as possible, that is our blessing. If I can help my kids flourish and be the best they can be, I would have done my job as a parent well and I will look back with utmost pride.

[lazyplane]

i do not doubt any parent will want to give their best for their kid.
But the best is subjective and it depends on personal family values.

And because it is subjective to personal family values , i disagree with name- calling and personal remarks.

But this discussion has made me stumble on one point which i think can generate a lot views , that is :

Is it the right of the parent to choose how they want to spend their money on their children OR is it the right of the children to decide this ? And where and when does this point diverge ? Eg, does the child need to be of a certain age/maturity ?

Good discussion points.

Originally Posted by whizzard

My parents were not rich. However, when it came to education for their children, they would just spend whatever hard earned savings they had. My sister and I benefitted from this even though both of us had to take up tuition loan to supplement this.

Now, we are both doing OK in life, thanks no doubt to our parents. At this stage of our lives, we try our level best to repay the love, sacrifice and trust that our parents unquestionably lavished on us ..... I don't think it would ever be enough. The amount they spent is not a lot but in relation to what they had, it was a gamble.

When it comes to my children, I would finance them wherever they are qualified for, hoepfully it's Harvard, Oxbridge or some other Ivy league, otherwise wherever. At least, I won't have to live with any guilt of what could be. Whether there is any gratitude, hopefully their upbringing will guide them wisely.

At the end of the day, we came into this world with nothing and we will leave with nothing. We are all a transient visitor in this world and if we make a difference to as many people as possible, that is our blessing. If I can help my kids flourish and be the best they can be, I would have done my job as a parent well and I will look back with utmost pride.

Originally Posted by lazyplane

But this discussion has made me stumble on one point which i think can generate a lot views , that is :

Is it the right of the parent to choose how they want to spend their money on their children OR is it the right of the children to decide this ? And where and when does this point diverge ? Eg, does the child need to be of a certain age/maturity ?

Good discussion points.

This is an emotionally difficult question. It's not simply a matter of "offer" versus "demand". It's not right for the child to "demand", but it's only appropriate for the parent to "offer".

I was denied a place in NUS medicine as I did not clear the interview, despite getting much better academic results than many who got in.

My parents were not rich, but they had a house which cost around $500k at that time. Would it be right for me to "demand" that they sell the house to send me overseas to study medicine? Of course not. It would have made me the ultimate unfilial son.

However, if they had made the offer, it would have been the ultimate sacrifice, similar to offering a kidney. In fact, I might have turned it down, but the offer was not made.

There are lots of grey areas in human emotions, the most difficult of which are borderline cases like mine. If my parents had been bus drivers who could not raise even $100k, it would have been very clear cut. If they were millionaires, then $500k would be small change.

$500k. All I had needed at that time was $500k.

It is ironic that today I make approximately $500k every half a year or so, but have neither the energy nor time to go back to medical school. Sometimes I just stare at my bank account and thought that if I just have a time machine, I could go back to the past and write a cheque to myself.

Life makes fun of people.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is an emotionally difficult question. It's not simply a matter of "offer" versus "demand". It's not right for the child to "demand", but it's only appropriate for the parent to "offer".

I was denied a place in NUS medicine as I did not clear the interview, despite getting much better academic results than many who got in.

My parents were not rich, but they had a house which cost around $500k at that time. Would it be right for me to "demand" that they sell the house to send me overseas to study medicine? Of course not. It would have made me the ultimate unfilial son.

However, if they had made the offer, it would have been the ultimate sacrifice, similar to offering a kidney. In fact, I might have turned it down, but the offer was not made.

There are lots of grey areas in human emotions, the most difficult of which are borderline cases like mine. If my parents had been bus drivers who could not raise even $100k, it would have been very clear cut. If they were millionaires, then $500k would be small change.

$500k. All I had needed at that time was $500k.

It is ironic that today I make approximately $500k every half a year or so, but have neither the energy nor time to go back to medical school. Sometimes I just stare at my bank account and thought that if I just have a time machine, I could go back to the past and write a cheque to myself.

Life makes fun of people.

Make more money and start a hospital or give out free medicine scholarships.

Btw, care to share how you make 1m/yr? Doing business or working?

I'm sorry to say this to you, but I think it is right that top medical schools turn away candidates that don't pass the interview. A doctor should be a people-oriented person who often functions as a therapist and advisor. There are far too many people with no EQ who want to be doctors for the money, so top medical schools need to turn these people away by analyzing them at the interview. Many people can qualify to be doctors, but only some truly believe in the Hippocratic Oath so its more important to take applicants for the right reasons rather than those who mug best in exams. They should prioritise areas like leadership ability, social work and charity to exam results. NUS simply practices what good medical schools in the U.S. do.

There are 2nd class medical schools (from the UK to India) available for those who still want to get into medicine for the money, but its not an easy path to money either. There are a lot of GPs (especially locums) who earn less than $100K a year. So one has to weigh their love for medicine against the cost to their families.

GPS can make more money (say $200K+), but they really have to work like a dog with long hours and take risk by setting up private clinics. Unfortunately if GPs want an easy life then they have to be pretty ordinary citizens. Sure, just like the finance profession, there are a few who make it to being top surgeons and specialists and while this is risky and a messy job, you can earn millions and get a high from saving lives.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

My parents were not rich, but they had a house which cost around $500k at that time. Would it be right for me to "demand" that they sell the house to send me overseas to study medicine? Of course not. It would have made me the ultimate unfilial son.

However, if they had made the offer, it would have been the ultimate sacrifice, similar to offering a kidney. In fact, I might have turned it down, but the offer was not made.

If you truly wanted to do medicine, you could have chosen some other paths:

1. Get into a U.S. University on scholarship since if you had better results than those getting in to NUS Medical School, your A Levels should be pretty spectacular. Register for a pre-med program and then apply to medical school after you get your undergraduate degree.

2. I suppose your parents didn't want to risk poverty in their old age to spend their life savings on you, which is reasonable. However, there are cheaper medical schools like in India and if you borrowed money from them by a re-mortgage on their property and then worked your ass off to pay it down when qualified. it may have worked.

Given that you currently earn more than what a good surgeon earns in Singapore, you probably made the right choice anyway. And you might never have made it in medicine.

[lazyplane]

Hmm..

I think most folks may find themselves in that catch 22 situation where they have just enough to send their kid(s) overseas or for themselves in terms of retirement. Worse when they have only enough to send 1 . So should they send the older or the younger one ?

If it was clear cut, then i do sort of agree it would be easier for parents just to say : GO and etc.

You made a good point about parents needing to make an offer but if this is so, the decision then is shifted to the kid who makes the decision.

In today's newspaper it was mentioned that 7500 kids defaulted on their parents CPF university loans ie to top back their parents CPF account after finding a job. It did not mention if the parents needed the money.

I am sure the kids have their reasons. And would love to hear more of their views.