Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a first class honours friend from NUS, also one of the commendation listers in part b. He says it’s very easy to find a job - wherever he applies he will definitely get an interview and it’s usually a breeze. How true is this? Are grades important even after 5 PQE?

Yes. A slacker good for nothing 5pqe associate first class honours is very much in demand

Sorry but I just want to say that we all have our dignity to uphold
Also who can afford to take $500/month and endure all the scoldings?
A lot of us have families waiting for us to bring allowance back home; let alone pay for experience of getting scolded then leave for overseas for education.

I think all of you should be realistic in life to see that this dude is more of an exception than a rule of commonality

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just wanted to share a perspective. Do what you will with it.

I'm a 2nd year UK law student who just landed a vac scheme with an MC firm. Nope, I'm not oxbridge, I'm not even UCL/LSE. I might be the only person in my entire cohort (at least the singaporeans), to have gotten an MC vac scheme.

I don't hold myself out to have made it. I am aware that my journey has just begun.

I just want to point out that the training you get is a very important consideration, which unfortunately hasn't really been touched upon in this thread. If there is evidence otherwise, I am prepared to stand corrected.

I spent 1.5 years in a Chinatown firm before I went to law school. Can't really call me an intern because the scope of the work I did far exceeded that of any intern, can't really call me a paralegal for the same reasons, but I was definitely not a "lawyer"; i had no law degree and was certainly not qualified. I was fresh out of poly, by the way, I didn't even pursue a law diploma.

I was thrown work like drafting pleadings, affidavits (witness statements for reference in case you are a UK law student) , written submissions and what not. Believe it or not, these weren't merely for run in the mill cases; I assisted and in some cases, outright handled the drafting for several complex civil litigation matters that involved 10 or so causes of action.

Of course, these tasks weren't dumped on me on the first day, but gradually over time the boss began to trust me and value me (albeit to a degree he should not have given my inexperience). Additionally, I did all the other mundane things that one usually associates with an intern; binding, photocopying, so on and so forth. Yes, I get that it's really dubious that my boss entrusted me with all that, but hey, that's not my fault and not something I am in a position to justify. All i can tell is my story.


During that time, I was put to work harder than I have ever been in my life. There were a few months where I worked from 9 - 5. By that I mean 9am - 5am. This went on for 6, sometimes 7 days a week. How much was I paid?

Lol, $500 a month. Oh yeah, I also got all the usual abuse as well for "screwing up" the drafting, typographical errors on correspondences and all that kind of crap. Unlike some of the others who have been on the receiving end, I had no law degree or training whatsoever, very often I felt that the treatment was utterly unreasonable because its like blaming a child who doesn't even know why he's at fault. The scoldings were very vicious, and many a time I wondered if I was about to get punched in the face. In fact, I often joke to some of my friends that no scolding I received in the SAF could rival the scoldings I received in the law firm. This was true also of the reasonableness of the scoldings I got.

Yeah. my life was pretty sh*t. I wouldn't want to repeat that entire process again, especially on a $500 a month salary. I remember waking up in the middle of the night in cold sweat having nightmares about screwing up something in affidavit or statement of claim. I never had that before. There were days I felt like I was being slowly suffocated and there was nothing I could do about it.

I ended up quitting to go to law school and I still thank the heavens that I did.

Nonetheless, it was the training I received made me very successful in law school. Compared to what I had been through, my time in law school has been like a holiday. Grades wise, I scored high firsts on all my subjects in my first year save for one which got a 2:1. I placed 1st in a national level moot and have a string of other co-curricular achievements. Meanwhile, my peers from far more prestigious schools are struggling to even maintain a 2:1. I am someone who has never done well in school before university.

My intention in writing this is not to brag. Frankly speaking, I don't need validation from strangers on an online forum. I say this because in my view someone needs to emphasise that the quality of training you get is a very important and understated factor.

In my experience and from what I understand, some firms may pay better but provide very bad training. I would be very very hesitant to join such a firm. Having good mentor-ship and training are huge value adds that, in my opinion, payout huge dividends that will more than make up for marginally better salary.

As regards the working hours and environment, can be inhumane even in a Chinatown firm, but it doesn't have to simply be regarded as an absolute detriment. If you adopt the right attitude; it can be an invaluable learning opportunity and above all, very beneficial in terms character building.

To all of you out there who are about to start the grind, good luck and hang tough. Don't be defined by your path, instead, define the path you want to take.

This bloke is from Kings. Nuff said

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Sorry but I just want to say that we all have our dignity to uphold
Also who can afford to take $500/month and endure all the scoldings?
A lot of us have families waiting for us to bring allowance back home; let alone pay for experience of getting scolded then leave for overseas for education.

I think all of you should be realistic in life to see that this dude is more of an exception than a rule of commonality

Basically any form of workplace abuse is unacceptable.
This should be codified into law. Abuse, in any form, cannot and should never the tolerated.
Vac scheme is just internship. It’s good and I admire your ambitions and positivity.

But no form of abuse should be tolerated.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just wanted to share a perspective. Do what you will with it.

I'm a 2nd year UK law student who just landed a vac scheme with an MC firm. Nope, I'm not oxbridge, I'm not even UCL/LSE. I might be the only person in my entire cohort (at least the singaporeans), to have gotten an MC vac scheme.

I don't hold myself out to have made it. I am aware that my journey has just begun.

I just want to point out that the training you get is a very important consideration, which unfortunately hasn't really been touched upon in this thread. If there is evidence otherwise, I am prepared to stand corrected.

I spent 1.5 years in a Chinatown firm before I went to law school. Can't really call me an intern because the scope of the work I did far exceeded that of any intern, can't really call me a paralegal for the same reasons, but I was definitely not a "lawyer"; i had no law degree and was certainly not qualified. I was fresh out of poly, by the way, I didn't even pursue a law diploma.

I was thrown work like drafting pleadings, affidavits (witness statements for reference in case you are a UK law student) , written submissions and what not. Believe it or not, these weren't merely for run in the mill cases; I assisted and in some cases, outright handled the drafting for several complex civil litigation matters that involved 10 or so causes of action.

Of course, these tasks weren't dumped on me on the first day, but gradually over time the boss began to trust me and value me (albeit to a degree he should not have given my inexperience). Additionally, I did all the other mundane things that one usually associates with an intern; binding, photocopying, so on and so forth. Yes, I get that it's really dubious that my boss entrusted me with all that, but hey, that's not my fault and not something I am in a position to justify. All i can tell is my story.


During that time, I was put to work harder than I have ever been in my life. There were a few months where I worked from 9 - 5. By that I mean 9am - 5am. This went on for 6, sometimes 7 days a week. How much was I paid?

Lol, $500 a month. Oh yeah, I also got all the usual abuse as well for "screwing up" the drafting, typographical errors on correspondences and all that kind of crap. Unlike some of the others who have been on the receiving end, I had no law degree or training whatsoever, very often I felt that the treatment was utterly unreasonable because its like blaming a child who doesn't even know why he's at fault. The scoldings were very vicious, and many a time I wondered if I was about to get punched in the face. In fact, I often joke to some of my friends that no scolding I received in the SAF could rival the scoldings I received in the law firm. This was true also of the reasonableness of the scoldings I got.

Yeah. my life was pretty sh*t. I wouldn't want to repeat that entire process again, especially on a $500 a month salary. I remember waking up in the middle of the night in cold sweat having nightmares about screwing up something in affidavit or statement of claim. I never had that before. There were days I felt like I was being slowly suffocated and there was nothing I could do about it.

I ended up quitting to go to law school and I still thank the heavens that I did.

Nonetheless, it was the training I received made me very successful in law school. Compared to what I had been through, my time in law school has been like a holiday. Grades wise, I scored high firsts on all my subjects in my first year save for one which got a 2:1. I placed 1st in a national level moot and have a string of other co-curricular achievements. Meanwhile, my peers from far more prestigious schools are struggling to even maintain a 2:1. I am someone who has never done well in school before university.

My intention in writing this is not to brag. Frankly speaking, I don't need validation from strangers on an online forum. I say this because in my view someone needs to emphasise that the quality of training you get is a very important and understated factor.

In my experience and from what I understand, some firms may pay better but provide very bad training. I would be very very hesitant to join such a firm. Having good mentor-ship and training are huge value adds that, in my opinion, payout huge dividends that will more than make up for marginally better salary.

As regards the working hours and environment, can be inhumane even in a Chinatown firm, but it doesn't have to simply be regarded as an absolute detriment. If you adopt the right attitude; it can be an invaluable learning opportunity and above all, very beneficial in terms character building.

To all of you out there who are about to start the grind, good luck and hang tough. Don't be defined by your path, instead, define the path you want to take.

Any form of workplace abuse should never be condoned.

From the Ministry or Manpower website:
+++
“Workplace harassment can occur when one party at the workplace demonstrates behaviour that causes or is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to another party.

Examples of behaviour that may be harassment include:

Threatening, abusive, or insulting language, comments or other non-verbal gestures
Cyber bullying
Sexual harassment
Stalking”
+++

What are your remedies:
+++
Make a police report or seek civil remedies from the State Courts against the harasser if the contravention of a POHA provision is believed to have been committed. Victims of harassment can apply for a Protection Order (PO) and an Expedited Protection Order (EPO). The victim of harassment can also commence a civil suit against the harasser for monetary damages. It is possible to initiate both criminal and civil actions at the same time.
+++

So what if your partner or senior is a lawyer?
If we believe we have a fair and just court system, we should be able to get redress for a wrong committed against us.
As long as you do your work and your attitude is not poor, any remarks that attacks character or the integrity of a person should never ever be tolerated.
Stand up againt bullying. At a senior level, every lawyer is still subject to ethical rules.
If comments viewed objectively fall short of certain standards, there must be certain consequences.

No one, including your partners, is above the law. If it is bullying it is bullying. There are no shades of grey. A spade is a spade.
You partners have your own frustrations, deal with it. Don’t take it out on people

Sure, there is a lot shoutings and screaming at me.

In fact I never had it worse even compared to army days. I see my fellow trainees also cried on spot when the bosses failed to supervise properly.

Who can I complain to? And can I still be called to bar? I wonder if I should pursue a complain against my supervisor when I am 2 more months to be called to Bar. Will I be penalised?

If anything, my supervisor has shown me that law is a screwed up industry with screwed up imbalanced and abusive people.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

lol

Come to NUS then talk about getting First and 2:1 lah

Talk to 10% of the NUS cohort getting first and 60% getting a 2:1 – wait... isn't that about almost everyone?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Sure, there is a lot shoutings and screaming at me.

In fact I never had it worse even compared to army days. I see my fellow trainees also cried on spot when the bosses failed to supervise properly.

Who can I complain to? And can I still be called to bar? I wonder if I should pursue a complain against my supervisor when I am 2 more months to be called to Bar. Will I be penalised?

If anything, my supervisor has shown me that law is a screwed up industry with screwed up imbalanced and abusive people.

Still will get called in any case. Just go another firm finish up the 2 months

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Still will get called in any case. Just go another firm finish up the 2 months

Just suck it up for the remaining 2 months and get their signatures for the docs.