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  #1671 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 02:07 AM
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First of all, most professionals looking for legal conversion are probably doing it out of pragmatism so I don't expect most JD aspirants to be financially independent and studying for a degree out of sheer vanity like myself.

Anyway, I caught up with some class-mates last night and we all agreed that our decision to take the SMU JD was not rational in hindsight. None of us would recommend this course to others for now.


://treeofprosperity.blogspot.com/2017/04/my-jd-aftermath-1-adult-education-and.html

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  #1672 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
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Monthly:

Big 4 (local): $6400 to $9200 (0-3 PQE); up to $11,500 (5 PQE); $12,500-$13,500 (junior partner) + bonus 1-3 months

International (Magic circle UK): $14,000-$18,000 (0-3 PQE); $20,000-$22,000 (4-5 PQE); $23,000-$24,500 (6-7 PQE)
+ bonus 5-10%

International (non-MC UK): $9,000-$17,000 (0-3 PQE); $13,000-$21,500 (4-5 PQE)
+ bonus 5-10%

International (US): USD $15,000-$17,500 (0-3 PQE if NYC scale); USD $21,600 (5 PQE)
Usually no bonus

Mid tier (local): $4,500-$6,000 (0-3 PQE): $6,500-$8,000 (3-5 PQE); $10,000-$12,000 (above 5 PQE to JP)

Small: anything goes, between $3,500-$5,500 (0-3 PQE)

Source: combination of anecdotal, peers and seniors, & headhunters' salary guides.

How low is low is really up to the individual. Most of my friends won't go below $4,000 unless they're desperate. Depends on your circle of peers.

"Once you start low you remain low" only works in very small firms/solos when you negotiate salary with the sole prop/partners directly. If you join a bigger firm, its based on lock step, with perhaps -1/-2 years discount if you come in from an entirely unrelated practice area.
Thanks for posting but most of the information doesn't really matter because how many NUS/SMU law grads go directly into Cravath or International US firms/MC? You might get the odd one into CC (i.e. 1 or 2 every year but the vast 99.9% majority will go into local Big 4 type firms and even more into lower tier firms)

In fact, don't think I have seen anyone on linkedin who has made the jump from local undergrad into International US firms. Also in the US law is obv a post-graduate degree so USD180k is for those who spent 3 years getting their JD after their 4 year college course so 0PQE there is not the same as 0PQE at D&N for example.

Guys or law students here please don't be fooled by these numbers thinking you might be banking it in after you graduate. It literally is impossible (as in 0% chance).

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  #1673 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks for posting but most of the information doesn't really matter because how many NUS/SMU law grads go directly into Cravath or International US firms/MC? You might get the odd one into CC (i.e. 1 or 2 every year but the vast 99.9% majority will go into local Big 4 type firms and even more into lower tier firms)

In fact, don't think I have seen anyone on linkedin who has made the jump from local undergrad into International US firms. Also in the US law is obv a post-graduate degree so USD180k is for those who spent 3 years getting their JD after their 4 year college course so 0PQE there is not the same as 0PQE at D&N for example.

Guys or law students here please don't be fooled by these numbers thinking you might be banking it in after you graduate. It literally is impossible (as in 0% chance).
Absolutely agree. In fact, I would even go as far as to say that the local figures are overstated too. It is common knowledge for those in practice that very few 1st year assocs this year started with $6.4k.

I would suggest that students here check out the previous pages from this site - around March-June when associates were getting retention letters. It was even confirmed that one of the Big4s offered below $5k starting.

The numbers above should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

For the record, I also have not heard of undergrads transitioning straight into international firms (that are not JVCs) with such high starting pay.

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  #1674 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:29 AM
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the figures look good

so why arenít people staying in the industry?

I promise you, these figures are outdated, inflated and mostly irrelevant.
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  #1675 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:42 AM
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If you are at a Big 4 approaching the end of 3 years now with no sign of SA offer - Is that a bad sign?
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  #1676 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:48 AM
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If you are at a Big 4 approaching the end of 3 years now with no sign of SA offer - Is that a bad sign?
I know of assocs who weren't given a promotion in "title" but were given generous raises and bonuses. They were duly promoted when a space opened up - ie when an SA left (in order to keep the pyramid organisational structure).

But generally, if you're in a local firm, then yes.. bad sign.
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  #1677 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 11:08 AM
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Absolutely agree. In fact, I would even go as far as to say that the local figures are overstated too. It is common knowledge for those in practice that very few 1st year assocs this year started with $6.4k.

I would suggest that students here check out the previous pages from this site - around March-June when associates were getting retention letters. It was even confirmed that one of the Big4s offered below $5k starting.

The numbers above should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

For the record, I also have not heard of undergrads transitioning straight into international firms (that are not JVCs) with such high starting pay.
This year Big 4 seemed mostly to be paying about 5.6-6k. But less than 5k starting is a bit deceiving because that pay is for professional support associates and not "proper" associates. Bonus remains to be seen.

No one goes straight to the intl firms fresh out of school, but it is entirely possible to jump after a few years in a local firm.
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  #1678 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 11:39 AM
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This year Big 4 seemed mostly to be paying about 5.6-6k. But less than 5k starting is a bit deceiving because that pay is for professional support associates and not "proper" associates. Bonus remains to be seen.

No one goes straight to the intl firms fresh out of school, but it is entirely possible to jump after a few years in a local firm.
I am the OP above and I think we agree on most points.

The numbers are still a little on the high side imo, but this is a significantly more accurate range than $6.4k starting.

I know the firm that officially introduced "Professional Support" assocs. There is another Big4 firm that has offered first years less than $5.6K that does not have this "class" of assocs - at least it is not blatantly stated for all to see.

I take your point though, on not being "proper" assocs. My guess is that they would not have been retained at all if circumstances were different.
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  #1679 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 06:44 PM
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Thanks for posting but most of the information doesn't really matter because how many NUS/SMU law grads go directly into Cravath or International US firms/MC? You might get the odd one into CC (i.e. 1 or 2 every year but the vast 99.9% majority will go into local Big 4 type firms and even more into lower tier firms)

In fact, don't think I have seen anyone on linkedin who has made the jump from local undergrad into International US firms. Also in the US law is obv a post-graduate degree so USD180k is for those who spent 3 years getting their JD after their 4 year college course so 0PQE there is not the same as 0PQE at D&N for example.

Guys or law students here please don't be fooled by these numbers thinking you might be banking it in after you graduate. It literally is impossible (as in 0% chance).
I'm the one who posted those figures.

Agree with you that the chances of your generic NUS and SMU fresh grad entering an international firm is next to nil since most don't hire straight out of our usual 4 year LLB prog. They give a 2 year discount for non US JD.

But very few doesn't mean none. The stats are what they are. 99% of business grads don't make it to bulge bracket investment banking or private equity either but the salaries for these are available in the local market.

NUS alone has a fair few who have made the jump after slogging it out 2-3 years at big 5-6. Being a small community we like to keep tabs on who is working at where and earning what

You'll be surprised how many US and UK firms have small offices here that hire 1 to 2 local qualified lawyers and pay them according to what they pay their people back home. These are not your usual high profile magic circle giants but they're quietly under the radar doing substantial transactions here.

I don't think anybody will disagree with you that the market is bad for fresh grads. I'm sure most will know to temper their expectations accordingly given the spate of lawyers leaving the law and oversupply newspaper articles running ad naseum
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  #1680 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2017, 08:25 PM
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Agree that it's the 1%, but here's one from the 1%: s://.lw.com/people/jayanthi-sadanandan

Latham london's managing partner was from NUS.

Education
LLM, Harvard Law School, 1999
LL.B., National University of Singapore, 1995


Quote:
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I'm the one who posted those figures.

Agree with you that the chances of your generic NUS and SMU fresh grad entering an international firm is next to nil since most don't hire straight out of our usual 4 year LLB prog. They give a 2 year discount for non US JD.

But very few doesn't mean none. The stats are what they are. 99% of business grads don't make it to bulge bracket investment banking or private equity either but the salaries for these are available in the local market.

NUS alone has a fair few who have made the jump after slogging it out 2-3 years at big 5-6. Being a small community we like to keep tabs on who is working at where and earning what

You'll be surprised how many US and UK firms have small offices here that hire 1 to 2 local qualified lawyers and pay them according to what they pay their people back home. These are not your usual high profile magic circle giants but they're quietly under the radar doing substantial transactions here.

I don't think anybody will disagree with you that the market is bad for fresh grads. I'm sure most will know to temper their expectations accordingly given the spate of lawyers leaving the law and oversupply newspaper articles running ad naseum
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