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  #1691 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:11 PM
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Based on talks with actual in house counsel, partners in big 4 and assocs, unless you are group general counsel APAC for a BB bank, in house is a one-way road.

Therefore, choose very carefully. I spoke to an in house counsel at a swiss private bank who brought his work to reservist. He said his main factor was family time and work-life balance. He asked me when i wanted to start a family. I said 30. He said adjust your expectations. a bit pessimistic (i know of under 30 males in big 4+x who are married some with kids) but you get the point, from his perspective at least.


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From general observation, most General Counsels and Asst. General Counsels seem to have at least a couple years of private practice experience under their belt. I think it will take a lot longer (not impossible) to rise to that level without having some years of practice.

It is also difficult to return to practice now that you've left. So if your expectation is to return to practice as a partner of a Big 4, this ain't happening unless you have an extensive client list willing to back you.

Having said that, I think that the in-house landscape is on the cusp of a renewal of sorts. Indranee Rajah recently tossed around the idea of developing and regulating in-house talent in order to offer an attractive talent pool for foreign mncs. Though....I'm not too clear if this is a superficial measure undertaken in response to the glut of lawyers or if this is a genuine effort on the part of the govt to develop said talent pool.

Oh wells, only time will tell i guess!

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  #1692 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:19 PM
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Case study in NUS GLB: first degree in non-law, dean's lister for y2, landed TC with big 4 tier 1 very popular dept. Frankly i interned with him/her and i will say, even wo seeing his/her grades, he/she's rly solid personally and professionally. Assuming his/her grades are on par with my peers, if all were to go for a TC interview, he/she will be top of the shortlist.

I think for GLBs you need to ask the question: why did i not take law as first degree? You will succeed as a GLB if your answer is: "at that time, i was playing around and screwed up a levels. But i realised i'm a really determined and ambitious person who has strong drive, which emerged years into my first non-law job. I'm a late bloomer. and i feel under-utilised, underpaid, and underdeveloped my current job.

If you just think "i want more money" without some introspection, you'll regret the JD/GLB. Most people who talk about ROI see this as some stock you buy and just wait to generate returns. But good traders know that numbers are one thing, you gotta look into what you are investing in (yourself). All these figures are premised on fundamentals, and these can only be discovered by looking inward, not outward (other GLB success stories).


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First of all, most professionals looking for legal conversion are probably doing it out of pragmatism so I don't expect most JD aspirants to be financially independent and studying for a degree out of sheer vanity like myself.

Anyway, I caught up with some class-mates last night and we all agreed that our decision to take the SMU JD was not rational in hindsight. None of us would recommend this course to others for now.


://treeofprosperity.blogspot.com/2017/04/my-jd-aftermath-1-adult-education-and.html


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  #1693 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:25 PM
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If you are in a big 4, go prod around the company intranet on weekends when you are done with work. I was in a big 4 interning, went through one of those "waiting for work" moments and saw under the HR manpower requisition form that the assoc position terminates at 3pqe.

This means when this firm takes in laterals, they do not award associate roles for 4pqe or above, it will be senior assoc. Meaning you need to wait till your 3pqe ends, which is the upper limit for assocs.


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If you are at a Big 4 approaching the end of 3 years now with no sign of SA offer - Is that a bad sign?

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  #1694 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:30 PM
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Case study for the kind of situation you are envisioning: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelly-tseng-5aaa5aa3/

Trained at TSMP, started practice somewhere else.

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hello, i am quite worried about my own retention seeing how there might be a lack of capacity at where i am. Can I please get some advice at how you dealt with your situation? Thank you!
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  #1695 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:35 PM
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Praveen Randhawa (Ms), Director, Corporate Communications, Ministry of Law says:

The National University of Singapore enrols about 240 students for its undergraduate law programme while the Singapore Management University enrols about 180 students. Their graduates generally have no problem securing training contracts in local law firms.

Surveys conducted between 2011 and last year [2015] showed that 99 per cent of local law graduates obtained employment within six months of graduation. (Notwithstanding this, the ability of law firms to employ students will obviously depend on market conditions.)

In addition, many Singaporeans study law overseas. These numbers are not controlled by the Government and increased sharply to around 310 last year. During this period, only around 70 per cent of overseas-trained graduates managed to secure training contracts, let alone employment.

(Lawyers and training contracts: Law Ministry replies, Letters in Print News & Top Stories - The Straits Times)


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stop giving false hope

read ST today.

400 plus called to bar

200 only registered for practicing cert


the rest go where
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  #1696 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 02:55 PM
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To those in this position, I have a story of encouragement.
Before that, in general i would say hold up and DO NOT settle for community law TCs. The experience will make it very hard to justify a jump to corporate practices when they open up. They will think, guy/girl A from a small firm did corp work, you did crim and family, who would learn faster in the opening i have?

Story time: trained in small firm doing niche-corp work, started as an assoc in another niche firm doing niche-corp focus and some general corp work, currently in big 4 niche-corp dept. I asked him/her abt it. He/she said that that big 4 firm, a senior assoc left and so happened an opening came up. Given his strong niche-corp background, he/she got it and moved in. One of the most inspiring small to big4 stories i have.

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So last year I not manage to secure a training contract
There is quite a substantial number of my friends too who did not get a tc


I would like to try again this year round.

Is the market getting better now?
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  #1697 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 03:10 PM
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The simple answer: big 4 starting pay 5.5k. Yearly 1k increments for 5 years. Prospect of lateral-ling to offshores which pay near double after 5 years. I spoke to an assoc in practice, intending to leave after 5pqe, "sometimes it's just the money that keeps you going on those late nights". Those who leave decide they have gotten enough of this. That is not to generalise that those who stay are purely motivated by money like a donkey with carrot stick. They may truly enjoy it.


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Help lawyers to cope with work stress: CJ Menon
://.straitstimes.com/singapore/help-lawyers-to-cope-with-work-stress-cj-menon

Law firms should do more to help lawyers who may be struggling to cope with the volume and pace of their work, Chief Justice Sundaresh Menon said on Monday.

--


if it's so stressful, why are lawyers still hanging on to their misery? Why not quit. ? there's plenty of law grads anyway


or is it that they cannot take stress at all?
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  #1698 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NassimTourneuil.Phenix View Post
Based on talks with actual in house counsel, partners in big 4 and assocs, unless you are group general counsel APAC for a BB bank, in house is a one-way road.
Great advice there. Would just like to add on that there's one more (very narrow) exception - there is much movement (both directions) between BigLaw and IP counsel of massive mega-corporations (we're talking Fortune 500 or even 100 stature). Of course these are the exceptions rather than the norm (some even make more in house than in private practice, with stock-based compensation and all).
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  #1699 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 06:18 PM
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is it really that worth it to pursue law in singapore?

the pay may be good in the years ahead but how many people can sustain themselves over the years working into late nights. Hourly per rate, it is not that attractive. Not to forget you are also giving up your time with family and starting one. Also, what about health?
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  #1700 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 06:23 PM
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True, granted that is an inspiring story.

But how many people can afford the luxury to pick and choose without knowing what lies ahead. Even for the story, he/she also had to wait for the right opportune. Not many people in life have this luxury to wait out. We had to take what comes our way. We have bills to pay and mouths to feed at home.

And jumping from one firm to another would also mean each new stint is a new ball game. When you have a family to take care, how can you afford such uncertainty and embrace job insecurity.

I am also sure there are many others who just had to quit and their stories will never see the light of the day.

This is just survivour-bias form of story telling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NassimTourneuil.Phenix View Post
To those in this position, I have a story of encouragement.
Before that, in general i would say hold up and DO NOT settle for community law TCs. The experience will make it very hard to justify a jump to corporate practices when they open up. They will think, guy/girl A from a small firm did corp work, you did crim and family, who would learn faster in the opening i have?

Story time: trained in small firm doing niche-corp work, started as an assoc in another niche firm doing niche-corp focus and some general corp work, currently in big 4 niche-corp dept. I asked him/her abt it. He/she said that that big 4 firm, a senior assoc left and so happened an opening came up. Given his strong niche-corp background, he/she got it and moved in. One of the most inspiring small to big4 stories i have.
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