Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

can confirm, I got fch/summa at uni and did my tc (in corp) this year

for what it's worth, I felt stupid af and didn't know **** until 3 months in

Hah. If you were really intelligent and in a good practice area, it’d be years before you realise that you know what you’re doing.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I feel like most people keep comparing SG and UK salary are not factoring the tax and property rent costs into account. In many areas, SG is much more favourable than the UK. And when one reaches partnership, the tax implications (20% difference) have a much more significant role - and you may actually earn more as a senior lawyer in SG than in the UK (maybe that's why so many of them come here, aside that they get comp-ed in housing and schooling for kids, etc).

In the UK, NQ salary is subject to 40% tax (until £125k) and a max tax rate of 45% after that

Compare that with SG's NQ salary being subject to 11% tax (assuming <S$80k a year, based on $6.5k a month) and a max tax rate at 24%

Aside from this, most Singaporeans can stay with their parents to save money, or perhaps get loans for HDB (which while expensive can be paid over the rest of the next 20-35 years at a low cost).

In comparison, in London, most people would have to rent an apartment (which can be quite pricey).

On the point of rent, I get that being a lawyer is something which attracts the 'privileged'/upper-middle class in SG, but please don't forget that not everyone in SG is privileged enough to have nice parents to live with. there are people who have to rent in SG as well, and some of these people are lawyers.

And we all know SG rent has gone up by quite a bit over the past 18 months, even for subpar HDB rentals.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Well, I think there's a tradeoff.

The int'l firms are older, more established and survived within their own home territories. This is tough considering these territories are much more competitive than in Singapore. Just because you are a UK firm or a New York/Chicago/Texas firm (which we reductively term as "international firms") doesn't mean that you are guaranteed to succeed as an "international firm".

Additionally, they firms took on a risk to expand, set up and build a new (perhaps serving enough of their existing) client base in Singapore - which would take substantial costs to do so. The fact, and the reason why Minlaw lets them enter the market, is that when they come to Singapore, they employ a substantial number of Singapore lawyers (1/3 to 2/3rds of the firm, depending on their structure, excluding pure satellite offices that are FLPs).

The reason why the salary for these firms are not well-known (at least at trainee/nq level) is because they recruit so few trainees (e.g. 2 to 6) compared to the Big Four (which recruit >40 each year). For NQ and 1-3/later salaries, the reason why there seems to be so much inconsistency in the pay salary is because later salaries are driven by last drawns, individual performance, practice area, and market demand, not to mention the cut in PQE/salary for SG-qualified lawyers or those changing practice. That's why it's difficult for us to know, however, at the very least- it theoretically would be possible to know more about the trainee/NQ salaries from trainees who trained at the firm (if the firm doesn't publish their salaries like CC, Simmons, etc).

Now, I'm all for having more transparency in the market to help bridge the information asymmetry for employees/prospective employees. What I'm against is whining Singaporeans who complain all the time, without thinking about why the position is the way it is. Use your brain.

The fact is that the reason why the Big Four can't increase salaries to the level of int'l firms is because they take so many warm bodies in every year (so those who apply to go there have a higher/easier chance, than applying for FLA/JLV firms).

If you want them to increase salaries to match those of the UK/US firms, they either have to cut the recruitment of warm bodies down (but that would be detrimental, because these warm bodies are so profitable for such little pay). More likely, the equivalent would be them taking a risk and successfully gaining a foothold in the UK/US (and outbidding for mandates against firms in that market and outperforming in terms of their client services- which often requires them to have an international foothold to be a "global one stop shop"), which is very unlikely to be the case.

Your analysis is incorrect. US/UK firms hire tons of trainees/assocs in their home jurisdictions and yet still can afford to pay top salaries to them. The large international firms hire thousands of lawyers worldwide compared to the 300+ in the B4 here. So it's not about the number of lawyers they hire.

The real reason local law firms cannot pay compete on salaries is because their clients are generally stingy and not willing to spend as much on legal services. The hourly rates of local lawyers are much lower and that translates directly into lower revenue per lawyer and lower salaries.

Top US/UK firms cater to sophisticated international clients who are willing and able to pay more for legal services. A typical junior associate in an international firm is charging >S$700/hour which is already higher than what junior partners are charging in the B4. It's basic mathematics - when each hour of your work is not valued as much, then of course your salary will be lower.

Plenty of international firms come to Asia and get a shock when they realise Asian clients just don't pay as much. They survive mainly on servicing their Western clients with business needs in the region, and don't compete for the low-value work that local firms do.

I have a friend in his early 30s who's now a defence lawyer in sg
Graduated from the Uni of Birmingham iirc
Are defence lawyers paid well I wonder?

PS: I'm not a lawyer, just being nosey

partner’s rep is so bad it’s hurting my lateral chances (better firms not hiring from my team or asking for pqe cut). didn’t know about the rep until I joined, how do I get out?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a friend in his early 30s who's now a defence lawyer in sg
Graduated from the Uni of Birmingham iirc
Are defence lawyers paid well I wonder?

PS: I'm not a lawyer, just being nosey

Are u talking about criminal defence lawyer specifically?

Not much. Criminal lawyers usually practice in small Chinatown firms, which pay their associates $5K to $10K maybe (depending on seniority). If salaried partner (a rank, only in name), maybe $10K to $12K max.

After many years of experience, if he becomes an seasoned criminal lawyer, he can open his own shop or become equity partner in his current small firm. I'd say he can take home average $15K per month (after minusing overheads) doing normal volume-work petty criminal defence cases (traffic, theft, cheating, outrage of modesty, affray - mostly plead guilty or occasional trials) plus the occasional bigger or more complex cases (cheating, corruption, drug etc).

Some criminal lawyers practice in the big firms though, like R&T and Drew. These teams mainly focus on white-collar and financial crimes. If he's in these teams, then he'll be paid normal big firm associate salary scale.

Out of curiousity, what will you do if tomorrow you wake up and find yourself disbarred/struck off? What career options are there?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a friend in his early 30s who's now a defence lawyer in sg
Graduated from the Uni of Birmingham iirc
Are defence lawyers paid well I wonder?

PS: I'm not a lawyer, just being nosey

I will just tell you that I was offered $3,000 a month by a Chinatown criminal defence cum family law firm as a freshly called lawyer 5 years ago. Not good unless you get paid a cut of the profits.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Out of curiousity, what will you do if tomorrow you wake up and find yourself disbarred/struck off? What career options are there?

-Banquet waiter at hotels
-Property or insurance agent
-Grab food or grab driver

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Are u talking about criminal defence lawyer specifically?

Not much. Criminal lawyers usually practice in small Chinatown firms, which pay their associates $5K to $10K maybe (depending on seniority). If salaried partner (a rank, only in name), maybe $10K to $12K max.

After many years of experience, if he becomes an seasoned criminal lawyer, he can open his own shop or become equity partner in his current small firm. I'd say he can take home average $15K per month (after minusing overheads) doing normal volume-work petty criminal defence cases (traffic, theft, cheating, outrage of modesty, affray - mostly plead guilty or occasional trials) plus the occasional bigger or more complex cases (cheating, corruption, drug etc).

Some criminal lawyers practice in the big firms though, like R&T and Drew. These teams mainly focus on white-collar and financial crimes. If he's in these teams, then he'll be paid normal big firm associate salary scale.

Thanks for the insight. Very interesting to know for a non-lawyer like me. Even 15k is really not much today. Yes he is a criminal lawyer and is indeed involved in the petty crimes type of cases - saw his name in our newspapers a few times already.