Lawyer Salary

Hi,

I graduated from a mid-top tier UK university last year with a second uppers. I was very close to getting first class honours, just missed it by a small bit. Was taking the past year to travel around and maybe small part time jobs along the way cos I wanted to rest.

What are my options now? If I apply for a TC now, what are my chances especially if I highlight that I was v close to getting first class?

I think govt / stat boards / GLCs are more open to hiring fresh grads as in house lawyers... But not everyone wants to join civil service.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi,

I graduated from a mid-top tier UK university last year with a second uppers. I was very close to getting first class honours, just missed it by a small bit. Was taking the past year to travel around and maybe small part time jobs along the way cos I wanted to rest.

What are my options now? If I apply for a TC now, what are my chances especially if I highlight that I was v close to getting first class?

It's not impossible but it'll probably be difficult.

First, you'll need to have a more compelling story for your year off than "cos I wanted a rest." As you can tell by reading some of the other posts, the job market is bad and you're competing with hundreds of fresh graduates who didn't feel that a whole year of rest was necessary. Right from the start of the application process, you'll have HR execs and lawyers making inferences about your attitude and character based on your decision to take a year off. You're guaranteed to be asked to justify your decision assuming that you even make it to the interview stage. Unless you have a good story e.g. you helped jump start a new business venture or clerked at an international tribunal etc, this is going to be a big hurdle.

Secondly, your grades matter but which university you went to might matter more. Firms might be willing to excuse an Oxbridge grad feeling he needed a year off. Other universities; probably not so much.

Third, assuming you embarked on your travels immediately after graduating, that means you haven't completed the Part A Bar Exams and your RLT requirement. You need to complete these first before doing the Part B and then your TC. Since most RLT vacancies for next year are probably full by now, you might have to wait quite a while before you even start the process and by then you'll be competing with a whole new graduating cohort. (Do keep an eye on the Law Soc webpage though - some small firms release RLT vacancies outside the usual application window on that site). This long gap would likely be a concern as prospective employers might worry that you'd be out of touch with the law by the time you even begin your RLT stint.

Originally Posted by Pippa

What I find quite odd is SG students have to be from the scheduled list in order to be called to the SG bar? Whatever for? Why do you go through all the trouble to find yourself staring into space as far as job prospects in SG are bleak?

A Manchester Metropolitan law grad who is a UK citizen can work in the SG office of an international law firm, earn $6000 monthly, rent is paid for, work/life balance, enjoying life in SG, get a local gf so that she can assist him by settling into sunny SG etc and the dump her once he gets in touch with the expat night life circle.

Genuine question: What makes you think a Manchester Met law grad would be able to get a international law firm TC, and then get a secondment out to Singapore (without any local ties or relevant language skills)? The UK job market is extremely competitive; I went to Oxbridge, and some of my Brit classmates really struggled to get TCs despite having decent-ish CVs. Getting a UK TC is a real challenge IMO, and even more so if you're from a lower ranked uni like Manchester Met.

Also, where else do you suggest UK trained SG students work, shitty Singapore prospects notwithstanding? UK charges ridiculous tax rates, coupled with high living costs, which means your net income isn't that high. US is an incredibly difficult market to break into as a UK fresh grad without a US JD/ LLM, not least because of the immigration hurdles. Hong Kong pays very well if you work for an international firm, but their market currently isn't doing that well either with China's slowdown. Overall, Singapore also has the advantage of lower living costs (assuming one lives at home and saves on rent) and having friends and family around.

For the record, I'm not working in Singapore (HK MC trainee here), so this isn't a case of sour grapes.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is the starting pay fall back to the 5k a month level on average? I believe this is reverse frontloading of bonuses, so that bonuses becoming discretionary (read: reduced) for new associates.

So the oversupply, instead of bringing down legal costs has seen junior lawyers squeezed even harder. And then they get burned out and determined to quit before 5PQE. then our Ministry of Law once again lament we have not enough senior lawyers, not enough community law practitioners. ...

so why can;t you arrange a meeting with the law minister and tell him your point of view instead of 'lamenting' here as well?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Genuine question: What makes you think a Manchester Met law grad would be able to get a international law firm TC, and then get a secondment out to Singapore (without any local ties or relevant language skills)? The UK job market is extremely competitive; I went to Oxbridge, and some of my Brit classmates really struggled to get TCs despite having decent-ish CVs. Getting a UK TC is a real challenge IMO, and even more so if you're from a lower ranked uni like Manchester Met.

Also, where else do you suggest UK trained SG students work, shitty Singapore prospects notwithstanding? UK charges ridiculous tax rates, coupled with high living costs, which means your net income isn't that high. US is an incredibly difficult market to break into as a UK fresh grad without a US JD/ LLM, not least because of the immigration hurdles. Hong Kong pays very well if you work for an international firm, but their market currently isn't doing that well either with China's slowdown. Overall, Singapore also has the advantage of lower living costs (assuming one lives at home and saves on rent) and having friends and family around.

For the record, I'm not working in Singapore (HK MC trainee here), so this isn't a case of sour grapes.

if you have free time amidst your busy schedule and browse through the international law firms based in SG you will see that their trainees or associates have graduated from so called 'lower ranked' UK unis.

They are living the life. Rent for a condo unit paid for, they bring over their partners, they live it up in SG, they love the fact that there is no democracy in SG, no strikes, no trade union demonstrations, illegal for people to protest, SG population is largely domicile and clueless, no welfare system so foreigners won't get taxed to fund the helpless local citizens, wonderful sunny weather and so many other reasons. But the main reason I feel and many of them have directly implied to me is that no where in the world do you see a country who keeps silent and let the market forces dictate that foreigners more often than not gets an easy ride while the ordinary citizens have to struggle day in and day out.

Regarding your points in the second paragraph, it was not me but the guest of honour and many lawyers on the panel of the UK-SG law student society seminar that kept telling everybody to go to Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, China to get legal work experience first or become a chef, open a restaurant, go into business instead. and all throughout that 3 hours, the people in the audience showed not even one reaction, except me. I was flabbergasted.

I wish you well on your endeavour in HK. You took a plunge going there and I respect your bravery for doing so. Make us proud!

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think govt / stat boards / GLCs are more open to hiring fresh grads as in house lawyers... But not everyone wants to join civil service.

Are you sure? I think they are looking for experienced hires as well given that they have more choices now ( those seeking to escape private practice and have work life balance) On the contrary, i heard stat boards legal positions and legal service are VERY competitive. Also heard that Legal Service is imposing some soet of hiring freeze because most of their legal positions are filled up (no one quiting?!?!) So even though they took away the second upper and above requirement, they are still so spoilt for choices that they only consider JLC material candidates ( those not eventually chosen JLC become their DPP or State Counsel)

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Genuine question: What makes you think a Manchester Met law grad would be able to get a international law firm TC, and then get a secondment out to Singapore (without any local ties or relevant language skills)? The UK job market is extremely competitive; I went to Oxbridge, and some of my Brit classmates really struggled to get TCs despite having decent-ish CVs. Getting a UK TC is a real challenge IMO, and even more so if you're from a lower ranked uni like Manchester Met.

Also, where else do you suggest UK trained SG students work, shitty Singapore prospects notwithstanding? UK charges ridiculous tax rates, coupled with high living costs, which means your net income isn't that high. US is an incredibly difficult market to break into as a UK fresh grad without a US JD/ LLM, not least because of the immigration hurdles. Hong Kong pays very well if you work for an international firm, but their market currently isn't doing that well either with China's slowdown. Overall, Singapore also has the advantage of lower living costs (assuming one lives at home and saves on rent) and having friends and family around.

For the record, I'm not working in Singapore (HK MC trainee here), so this isn't a case of sour grapes.

Agree with much you said. If you are deemed a foreigner, no country really bothers to put your interests in mind unless you bring about even greater benefits. Would imagine HK be very competitive as well and probably more advantageous to be well versed or qualified to practice Mainland China laws.

Mr Sim Jing En, 23, who graduated from Ngee Ann Polytechnic with a diploma with merit in Tourism and Resort Management. He is now a first-year law student at Cambridge.

://.straitstimes.com/singapore/mentors-to-help-students-get-into-top-unis

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Mr Sim Jing En, 23, who graduated from Ngee Ann Polytechnic with a diploma with merit in Tourism and Resort Management. He is now a first-year law student at Cambridge.

://.straitstimes.com/singapore/mentors-to-help-students-get-into-top-unis

He is a PSC Scholar as well. So a future high flying civil servant or DPP for the next 8 years at least. Wondering sometimes if our Government ever get enough Oxbridge/Ivy league scholars at the top.