Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"...these firms which probably have exactly a singaporean count of 0"

If I can point you to one of these non SC or MC int'l firms which has a Singapore qualified lawyer / true-blue Singapore-pedigree lawyer in their SG office, your oh-so-confident assertion falls apart immediately. Wanna take up the bet?

Anyway this forum is highly blinkered and toxic. People here only seem to think 3 kinds of firms exist - Big 4, MC and SC. Are you guys seriously so tunnel visioned?

I get the fixation with prestige. Lawyers are such prestige wh*res. But surely you must realize that other kinds of international firms exist too? Or do you not even understand your market?

You realise you seriously misunderstood the first guy who was writing that the pay is low for "even SC" level firms and took it to mean that he only thinks that MC/SC firms exist right?

Can you please get off your high horse? Every lawyer generally knows that other types of "internationals" like White Shoes, FLAs etc exist.

The OP was saying that 24k for 7 PQE is low for SC level firms (and above), which is correct. Any firm above SC pay (MC or White Shoe or even Int firms without local partners) would far exceed this.

Int firm FLAs generally pay around Big4 level (give or take), they likely do not hit 24k for 7 PQE.

Therefore, it seems quite obvious that when someone asks if "24k for 7 PQE in int firms", he did in fact mean that he was benchmarking the 24k against SC firms and above. He was not referring to the faux internationals or the internationals paying local salaries (i.e. your specialists or FLA firms).

It seems that you do not understand your market whatsoever, as you have (to borrow your own phrase) been so tunnel-visioned that you refused to stop and consider the context of the discussion.

You remind me of the type of assh*le in law school who is hated because he believes he is never wrong, refusing to edit his slides because "you guys can't see the big picture" and doesn't consider that others are as smart as (or likely smarter) than him.

It doesn't behoove a lawyer (if that is what you are), to act all arrogant and slam Singaporean Lawyers for being "tunnel visioned" or "prestige wh*res" when you do not even seem to have a basic grasp of the local conditions. I can only imagine that you are either a lawyer with a serious chip on your shoulder, or you're one of those know-it-alls (who actually doesn't know anything and was generally avoided by your peers in law school - so you aren't privy to the general knowledge prevalent among lawyers).

Please edify yourself Sir.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You realise you seriously misunderstood the first guy who was writing that the pay is low for "even SC" level firms and took it to mean that he only thinks that MC/SC firms exist right?

Can you please get off your high horse? Every lawyer generally knows that other types of "internationals" like White Shoes, FLAs etc exist.

The OP was saying that 24k for 7 PQE is low for SC level firms (and above), which is correct. Any firm above SC pay (MC or White Shoe or even Int firms without local partners) would far exceed this.

Int firm FLAs generally pay around Big4 level (give or take), they likely do not hit 24k for 7 PQE.

Therefore, it seems quite obvious that when someone asks if "24k for 7 PQE in int firms", he did in fact mean that he was benchmarking the 24k against SC firms and above. He was not referring to the faux internationals or the internationals paying local salaries (i.e. your specialists or FLA firms).

It seems that you do not understand your market whatsoever, as you have (to borrow your own phrase) been so tunnel-visioned that you refused to stop and consider the context of the discussion.

You remind me of the type of assh*le in law school who is hated because he believes he is never wrong, refusing to edit his slides because "you guys can't see the big picture" and doesn't consider that others are as smart as (or likely smarter) than him.

It doesn't behoove a lawyer (if that is what you are), to act all arrogant and slam Singaporean Lawyers for being "tunnel visioned" or "prestige wh*res" when you do not even seem to have a basic grasp of the local conditions. I can only imagine that you are either a lawyer with a serious chip on your shoulder, or you're one of those know-it-alls (who actually doesn't know anything and was generally avoided by your peers in law school - so you aren't privy to the general knowledge prevalent among lawyers).

Please edify yourself Sir.

All this verbiage and nobody can answer the simple question.

Its like me asking, "what are my food options in Lau Pat Sat with $5?", and you reply, "$5 is too little to buy anything from the Char Kway Teow store". If you think that's an adequate answer, please don't be any kind of working professional, let alone a lawyer.

"He was not referring to the faux internationals or the internationals paying local salaries (i.e. your specialists or FLA firms)."

Thank you for proving my earlier point about having a blinkered view of the market. So its MC, SC, Big 4, "faux internationals" and "FLA firms". At least your narrow horizons are broadening somewhat.

ok so what pay can one expect at 7 PQE at MC/WS firms

Originally Posted by Unregistered

ok so what pay can one expect at 7 PQE at MC/WS firms

30k-ish for MC 30-40k for US depending on your discount.

what's the future career path for a trainee doing crim defence/fam law?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

what's the future career path for a trainee doing crim defence/fam law?

If you're talking about monetary prospects, unfortunately a crim/fam lawyer doesn't earn that much (which is not to say you can't make a decent living as a chinatown lawyer).

For crim, unless you're doing white collar work, or High-Net Work individual divorce, your clients are generally less well-to-do. Therefore, your billables will be low, or you will have to reduce (or fee cap) your hourly billing rate as you'll find that some (or most) of your clients are unable to afford the standard hourly rates.

There's a reason SUSS had to be created.

Your best bet will be to move into Minlaw or AGC (so you can at least have work-life balance with your low pay), or to go to a smaller outfit and ask for a cut of the files you do. The good thing about smaller (or chinatown) firms is that you earn equity status much faster, and therefore can actually outearn your b4 friends (at least at the start) but you'll find yourself hitting a plateau quite quickly (for example, you might find that you never earn above 20-30k/month).

If you're looking to be a "high-flyer", I suggest you try to apply out to civil and commercial litigation outfits, which generally takes on larger cases (with larger fees). If you're content with 20-30k/month, you can establish a small sized family/crim law outfit anywhere in Chinatown, and you'd probably still survive.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you're talking about monetary prospects, unfortunately a crim/fam lawyer doesn't earn that much (which is not to say you can't make a decent living as a chinatown lawyer).

For crim, unless you're doing white collar work, or High-Net Work individual divorce, your clients are generally less well-to-do. Therefore, your billables will be low, or you will have to reduce (or fee cap) your hourly billing rate as you'll find that some (or most) of your clients are unable to afford the standard hourly rates.

There's a reason SUSS had to be created.

Your best bet will be to move into Minlaw or AGC (so you can at least have work-life balance with your low pay), or to go to a smaller outfit and ask for a cut of the files you do. The good thing about smaller (or chinatown) firms is that you earn equity status much faster, and therefore can actually outearn your b4 friends (at least at the start) but you'll find yourself hitting a plateau quite quickly (for example, you might find that you never earn above 20-30k/month).

If you're looking to be a "high-flyer", I suggest you try to apply out to civil and commercial litigation outfits, which generally takes on larger cases (with larger fees). If you're content with 20-30k/month, you can establish a small sized family/crim law outfit anywhere in Chinatown, and you'd probably still survive.

Anyone knows how much the DPPs with 5PQE earns at AGC ? I don’t see much of them leaving to join B4, much less the international firms (unheard of!). So how much? Alot ?

Is it advisable to do tc before part b? Assuming you are allowed to

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is it advisable to do tc before part b? Assuming you are allowed to

Yes, don't waste time. Part B is not going to "help" you do better in your TC.