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  #14001 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 02:31 AM
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Come kiddos. Let a middle category lawyer and uncle share his story.

Was a local grad from the much-publicized "glut of lawyers" era. For the younger ones who don't know, the glut affected the classes of 2014-2017. I think class of 2015 onwards were hit the hardest. If you recall, the mass delisting of 8 lower ranked UK unis was announced mid-2015, so MinLaw already had a sense of the glut brewing from 1 to 2 years back. Remember that there's a lag time between realities in the market and when the government actually takes notice of a problem.

Those were really dark times, searching for TCs during Years 2 and 3. We all entered uni full of optimism, being regaled during law sch orientation with tales about seniors getting TCs offers from big corporate firms with fancy sounding names like Drew, A&G, WongP, and high starting salaries.

Being naïve little law kiddos, we didn't know any better. Went into TC application season full of hope, expecting good outcomes & multiple offers. Excited at the prospects of working till 12mn everyday on big deals and cases for fancy corporate clients, a-la Suits. Then reality hit...

Competition for TCs was very tough. There was a jarring disconnect between what our seniors told us, and what we experienced. Applying to 10, 20, 30 firms, interviewing with a measly 5, receiving 0 offers. Silence from all the other firms. Not even rejection emails. Nothing like the situation our seniors had described, being spoilt for choice between R&T or Drew, etc...

I was a slightly above-average 2nd Class Upper, but still remembered being painfully rejected by many small or mid-sized firms. Can you imagine? - above average local law student fighting tooth and nail with other average 2nd Class Uppers for these smallish non-fancy firms...The kind of firms our seniors wouldn't even have deigned to apply to. How shameful and pathetic it was.

Even my deans’ lister friends struggled to get more than 1 offer from a Big 4.

Naturally, we all looked for an external group to blame, and the convenient scapegoat was obviously the overseas law students. We despised them for flooding the market. We felt they were inferior and stupid for failing to get into NUS or SMU, and instead had to “buy” their way to a law degree from the UK. And now they were competing with us for jobs with the benefit of good paper grades because they were not graded on a curve and their schools gave out Firsts liberally.

Thankfully, a mid-sized firm offered me. The rest is history. Today I’m a junior partner in a reputable firm. All of my law sch friends are doing well in their own way.

I think a lot of the local grads' disdain of overseas grads stems from the trauma of that “glut” era. The jarring disconnect between our impressions and the realities. The dashed hopes for many. When times are bad, people look for another group to pile the blame on. When times are good, the pie is big enough for everybody and nobody takes issue.

Do I think overseas grads are inferior? No. I’ve seen my fair share of CMI local grads too. Some of them, I even wonder how they graduated NUS. Honestly, as a junior associate, you're just a cog in the wheel. You're required more as a warm body than for your brilliant legal mind, with a few exceptions. The best kind of junior associate understands the instructions quick, and knows what questions to ask when she doesn't.

At the end of the day, keep your head up, plod on, distinguish yourself. The job market doesn’t owe anybody a living. Learn to hustle. You will land somewhere and learn to make the best of what you have. That is all.
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I refer to post #13997.
The glut is not caused by people going overseas to study.
The truth is there will always be Singaporeans going overseas to study.
People who may not do very well at A levels (by that I mean your hci/rjc who didn’t get the 4As but only ended up with 2As and 2Bs) but nonetheless want to study law.
Look at the lawyers in their 40s-60s from UOL and some of the other British universities no longer in the scheduled list.

The problem with the glut is very much due to babies born in the late 1980s- early 1990s.
Basically the dragon to horse years. If you remember schools were filled to the brim and index nos were 40-42 in primary schools. Parents rushing to ballot for a place in a good primary school.

Singaporeans will always go overseas to study if they want to do a certain subject, have the means, or just want an overseas exposure.

Now with a declining birth rate year on year, the glut will slowly resolve itself. But it takes time.

If you delist a certain number of universities (the same was done to the list of scheduled medical universities recognized by Sg recently), singaporeans will end up going to those in the scheduled list. Eg australia, Nz, and the rest of the remaining unis in the UK list.

So it doesn’t matter.

Everyone faces challenges unique to their time. You would hate being a Nq-2pqe finance lawyer in the 2008 global financial crisis.
i think every year some junior lawyers will be stressed or anxious. to these people I say dw guys/gals, just keep trying, in time you'll get a couple years PQE - gets better from there. disregard the trolls here.


anyway to these two posters, I would like to say thank you both for your posts.

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  #14002 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 05:29 AM
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i think every year some junior lawyers will be stressed or anxious. to these people I say dw guys/gals, just keep trying, in time you'll get a couple years PQE - gets better from there. disregard the trolls here.


anyway to these two posters, I would like to say thank you both for your posts.
Thanks for sharing, however, I support the move to delist schools.

I think it is a step in the right direction towards ensuring quality in the legal profession. It is not just an immediate oversupply problem (with reference to the time of the glut), because if it were, there would be no need to review schools on the list every 5 years.

The intent behind delisting schools (and the choice of certain schools) is clear.

A strong academic foundation in the law is a good indicator of your success as a practitioner. It does not guarantee success, and the statement is not always invariably the case, but often the case. While there are great lawyers who overcame their performance in law school, there are many, many others who cannot demonstrate a good grasp of the simple question of what the law is.

A handful of success stories cannot explain the majority.

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  #14003 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 10:03 AM
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Thank you boss. What is the meaning of having teachers that allow you to write your own essay?
You need teachers that allow you to write your own recommendation letter, one long essay on how perfect you are and how you're the smartest student to grace their classes.

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  #14004 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 12:05 PM
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You need teachers that allow you to write your own recommendation letter, one long essay on how perfect you are and how you're the smartest student to grace their classes.
Oh understand, thank you
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  #14005 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 12:09 PM
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Thanks for sharing, however, I support the move to delist schools.

I think it is a step in the right direction towards ensuring quality in the legal profession. It is not just an immediate oversupply problem (with reference to the time of the glut), because if it were, there would be no need to review schools on the list every 5 years.

The intent behind delisting schools (and the choice of certain schools) is clear.

A strong academic foundation in the law is a good indicator of your success as a practitioner. It does not guarantee success, and the statement is not always invariably the case, but often the case. While there are great lawyers who overcame their performance in law school, there are many, many others who cannot demonstrate a good grasp of the simple question of what the law is.

A handful of success stories cannot explain the majority.
Going by the tenor of the argument you raised, does this mean you are saying that Manchester (delisted), for instance, is worse academically than those existing on the list, eg Flinders, Monash and Tasmania?
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  #14006 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 01:07 PM
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Going by the tenor of the argument you raised, does this mean you are saying that Manchester (delisted), for instance, is worse academically than those existing on the list, eg Flinders, Monash and Tasmania?
Manchester is known for their football, so yes, worse academically.
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  #14007 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 01:10 PM
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Going by the tenor of the argument you raised, does this mean you are saying that Manchester (delisted), for instance, is worse academically than those existing on the list, eg Flinders, Monash and Tasmania?
Yes, I believe s/he is saying exactly that. And no, s/he does not have clear evidence to prove this, because all metrics you can use for evaluating schools have a degree of subjectivity. And on the flip-side, neither can you prove that those schools remaining on the list, eg Flinders, Monash and Tasmania are better than Manchester. Nobody can, because the difference between these schools is not significant. It's not comparing Harvard to NUS.
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  #14008 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 01:46 PM
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Yes, I believe s/he is saying exactly that. And no, s/he does not have clear evidence to prove this, because all metrics you can use for evaluating schools have a degree of subjectivity. And on the flip-side, neither can you prove that those schools remaining on the list, eg Flinders, Monash and Tasmania are better than Manchester. Nobody can, because the difference between these schools is not significant. It's not comparing Harvard to NUS.
Oh then you’re mistaken. There are objective standards that was relied on to delist the universities. Those are found in the QS and THE rankings. Please check the rankings before commenting that there are no objective standards to measure rankings by.
Australia universities cannot be delisted due to a FTA between Sg and Australia.
If you talk about standards then students from those universities not in the top 150 based on QS and THE should not be allowed to practice, which makes absolutely no sense.
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  #14009 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 02:17 PM
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Going by the tenor of the argument you raised, does this mean you are saying that Manchester (delisted), for instance, is worse academically than those existing on the list, eg Flinders, Monash and Tasmania?
Good point. I didn't even know Flinders and Tasmania existed. At least Manchester is good for football
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  #14010 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2021, 02:21 PM
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Oh then you’re mistaken. There are objective standards that was relied on to delist the universities. Those are found in the QS and THE rankings. Please check the rankings before commenting that there are no objective standards to measure rankings by.
Australia universities cannot be delisted due to a FTA between Sg and Australia.
If you talk about standards then students from those universities not in the top 150 based on QS and THE should not be allowed to practice, which makes absolutely no sense.
Oh thanks, makes sense.

I was wondering why OP was insinuating that Minlaw and SILE didn't do their research and based it off 'subjective' evidence.
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