front office - career advice

You only need 5As to enter the btm Ivy League schs. What's the big deal? There are so many 5As and above students in local unis. Many of them stay in Sg because of cost and they don't want to be bonded.

BB FO recruiters know that there are talented students in local unis. I never heard of anyone with >3.9 gpa or >4.8 CAP with relevant work experiences not being called up for penultimate year FO internship interviews. Penultimate yr internships are the main pipeline for their graduate recruitment.

I think you guys dont even know how the HR processes work or what the standards are.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You only need 5As to enter the btm Ivy League schs. What's the big deal?

BB FO recruiters know that there are talented students in local unis. I never heard of anyone with >3.9 gpa or >4.8 CAP with relevant work experiences not being called up for penultimate year FO internship interviews.

I think you guys dont even know how the HR processes work or what the standards are.

I am familiar with the admission and recruiting process of top schools and companies. You're almost right but some counter examples worth mentioning.

One: 5As with 70% percentile SAT, mediocre essays, uninspiring letters of recommendation describing a student who mugs everyday in the library and no CCAs, no way he is getting into any Ivy.

So it is not just 5As. This is a well known fact by those who spend time with the application process. If he had just 5As AND a national award in a science competition, maybe he creeps into the bottom of the Ivy's. For those aspiring Ivy leaguers out there, take note.

Two: A >4.8 CAP with major in Health Science and internship doing credit analyst at a small 10 employee first isn't getting called up by Goldman's IBD. You probably know this. I'm emphasizing that there are tons of > 3.8 GPA not getting what they want.

I have friends working in the NY offices of BBs, and a good number have commented that Singapore is well regarded for being very strong with technicals.

Aside from that, I don't think all the top students are flocking to banking these days. At least, not to IB. There is more of a work-life balance thingy going about, and I see a good number venturing into other areas... so it isn't fair to assume that all first class honors people are applying for IBs.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am familiar with the admission and recruiting process of top schools and companies. You're almost right but some counter examples worth mentioning.

One: 5As with 70% percentile SAT, mediocre essays, uninspiring letters of recommendation describing a student who mugs everyday in the library and no CCAs, no way he is getting into any Ivy.

So it is not just 5As. This is a well known fact by those who spend time with the application process. If he had just 5As AND a national award in a science competition, maybe he creeps into the bottom of the Ivy's. For those aspiring Ivy leaguers out there, take note.

Two: A >4.8 CAP with major in Health Science and internship doing credit analyst at a small 10 employee first isn't getting called up by Goldman's IBD. You probably know this. I'm emphasizing that there are tons of > 3.8 GPA not getting what they want.

It is true that some 5As and above students have unimpressive CCA records. But many of them do, esp from the top JCs. It is no secret that CCA matters and students dont only "suddenly realise" nearing the end of JC that CCA matters. They already know the rules of the game from day one. It's mostly those mid-tier and below JCs (*cough* value-added *cough*) that ingrain in their students that academics is everything. I can't blame them, their local uni conversion rate is only 85% or even less, even after retaining and expelling so many people that the idea of value-added school is a joke. Even those who enter may not get a course which they like. In a school culture like that, the 5As and above students produced are unlikely to have the records required to enter Ivy league unis.

No. Health sciences referring to pharmacy or nursing? 4.8 CAP nus pharmacy student should be able to secure a penulti internship interview with most BBs, even though the boutique credit analysis internship sounds pretty pathethic. Unless u are talking abt applying for the actual job or the faculty is nursing?

For smu, >3.9 gpa with relevant internships is almost confirmed you get a penulti interview at BB FO and they assess you from there. Actually I heard of lower gpa ppl getting in too, but tts besides the point. Their tests are rigourous enough to filter out the people they really want, not just taking in someone because he has an ivy league sch on their resume, or discounting someone who is smart but went to a local university. The penult internship is the interview for the actual job. It is a rigourous proccess, if you are talented you will not be weighed down by the university you came from (unless you don't even make the first interview round, if so you prob wont make it through the interview rounds anyway).

I'm not saying its easy either way, but people are creating illusions that being in an ivy league is such a high BTE that the smart people in local unis find incredibly difficult surpass. The barrier is way lower than many ppl think. Recruiters know how to target the smart local uni students and nobody cares if the HR in US doesn't know that Singapore even exists because the HR managers that recruit here are in Singapore. We are talking about getting a BB FO entry level job at Singapore guys, not wall street.

Totally agree with the above post.

I had very close friends with CAP scores ranging from 4.0 - 4.49 (second upper) from NUS getting into HSBC, MS and JPM FO IB.

LinkedIn is proof of their existence. Or better yet, go and speak to your colleagues from local schools. If they are honest enough, they won't lie about their CAP score or be ashamed about it.

I guess I'm being shown a more accurate picture. Or we are not considering the percentages of those getting BB FO within their group, one being Ivy and another being local >3.8 GPA.

Recruitment, and you'll soon find out in most things in work, is a percentages game. You can only push the percentages in your favor but the percentage doesn't go to 1. Harvard, 4.0 GPA, impressive CCAs but with a lousy attitude or lack of personality, the MD across the table can't imagine him rocking the show with the associates.

My stance is that coming from an Ivy league school, and the other top schools (Stanford, MIT) for emphasis, has its pull in pushing the numbers in your favor. And I haven't yet talk about other factors - alumni. A team ran by Ivy League kids might want an Ivy League guy to join them. Rightly or wrongly, this is the case. This is recruitment. This is life.

So while I accept all those stories of local school grads with >3.8 GPA getting BB FO jobs, isn't it more accurate that we consider how many such grads applied. For this group, maybe only 10% got the penultimate interview. If you're from Ivy League, you'll have a 50%. Then yes, it'll all up to you now.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

No. Health sciences referring to pharmacy or nursing? 4.8 CAP nus pharmacy student should be able to secure a penulti internship interview with most BBs,

I find this hard to believe. Linkedin was raised up and I stalked such profiles. Never once I saw a BB FO banker with a pharmacy or nursing major. I'm serious.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Their tests are rigourous enough to filter out the people they really want, not just taking in someone because he has an ivy league sch on their resume, or discounting someone who is smart but went to a local university.

Agreed. And in the US, they call it Superday. My point is out of those who came from a local university, how many got the penultimate interview.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm not saying its easy either way, but people are creating illusions that being in an ivy league is such a high BTE that the smart people in local unis find incredibly difficult surpass. The barrier is way lower than many ppl think.

If you really want to get technical, I'll settle it this way. Local school graduate 3.8 GPA would be equivalent to a Harvard 3.4 GPA.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I had very close friends with CAP scores ranging from 4.0 - 4.49 (second upper) from NUS getting into HSBC, MS and JPM FO IB.

Again, percentages. Your friends from NUS now at HSBC, MS and JPM FO IB came from their pool of say 500 applicants graduating from local schools. Those Ivy leaguers out number them by a factor of 3 and came from their pool of say 100 applicants. I know, it sounds like GMAT. Basically, if you're from an Ivy League, you're a rarer commodity which gets selected more.

Actually, given the crazy grade inflation in the US (particularly at Harvard), I am not many recruiters in the know would be impressed with a 3.4.

In local unis, you really have to be pretty good to get a first class/summa.

Besides that, I think one point you might be missing is performance on the job. This means, who can perform after securing the superday interviews? I would have you note on this front that local grads aren't subpar. Let's use one IB in Singapore as an example:

Take JPM IBD summer internship of 2014, 2 NUS, 1 Columbia and 1 other kid from some elite overseas uni. In the end, all got offered except the last kid.

For 2015 summer internship, it was 1 nus, 2 LSE and 1 upenn. Only the NUS kid and the upenn kid got the return offer.

If you are really in the industry as you have claimed, all of this is easily verifiable.

JPM last two summer internships took four and two kids. Damn, I'm so glad I'm still employed. Banking does seem it's shrinking. I was telling my friends that we are so far removed from the GFC that regulations should relax. Guess not. More so with what's happening in the last five days.

Anyway ...

You have the statistics, I have the anecdotes. If you're talking about averages, I think we're both right. If you talking about statistics, then I can't argue with you. Neither you can with me.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Actually, given the crazy grade inflation in the US (particularly at Harvard), I am not many recruiters in the know would be impressed with a 3.4.

Averages. For every recruiter you find that would not be impressed with a Harvard 3.4, I can find a recruiter that will be impressed.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In local unis, you really have to be pretty good to get a first class/summa.

I don't think anyone who hasn't been in a top school can describe how equally hard, or much harder, it is to get summa in a top school. Simply calculation. In top US schools, you'll find more high schoolers who graduate top of their high school than you would in local universities. Higher caliber students foster an environment that makes it difficult to finish at the top percentile for that A- or A.

The statistics don't lie. I tried to forge this argument using SAT but NUS and SMU doesn't have SAT stats. Nvm, we'll use GPA.

Average high school GPA for those enrolling in Wharton undergrad: 3.94
(://.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=67)
Tell me, is the average of those enrolling in NUS undergrad say a A, B, B for A levels?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Besides that, I think one point you might be missing is performance on the job. This means, who can perform after securing the superday interviews? Take JPM IBD summer internship of 2014, 2 NUS, 1 Columbia and 1 other kid from some elite overseas uni. In the end, all got offered except the last kid.

For 2015 summer internship, it was 1 nus, 2 LSE and 1 upenn. Only the NUS kid and the upenn kid got the return offer.

I give you this one. And yes, I'm in the industry. So let me propose a test one which can be verified.

Take a while to browse the Linkedin of associate level employees in the following companies. Do the Singapore offices. Blackstone. Blackrock. Oaktree Capital. Fortress. Templeton. Pimco.

I bet you for most, if not all of them, you'll find top US school graduates out number the local graduates 3 to 1.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Average high school GPA for those enrolling in Wharton undergrad: 3.94
(://.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=67)
Tell me, is the average of those enrolling in NUS undergrad say a A, B, B for A levels?

We can be a little more specific. I agree that the average NUS grad from engine/science/fass isn't going to have good grades for A levels. BBB sounds about right.

I think the pool of talent most of us are referring to are those from local business schools, or those doing double degrees. In this case, most are straight A students, which I am sure you can agree with.

On that note, you might say a Wharton kid is still better because of his outstanding CCA/national awards and you know what, I give you that. Probably, but not always is my stance.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Take a while to browse the Linkedin of associate level employees in the following companies. Do the Singapore offices. Blackstone. Blackrock. Oaktree Capital. Fortress. Templeton. Pimco.

I bet you for most, if not all of them, you'll find top US school graduates out number the local graduates 3 to 1.

This is true but do note that there is a BIG reason why >90% of overseas grads are doing consulting or IB FO in Singapore. This is not out of any love for the industry but rather practical considerations due to their situation. Look, most students who head to the top US/UK schools and are NOT on scholarships would be doing so on their parents dime. Now, some of their parents don't expect any returns at all while others do at least expect the money to be repaid back.

Let's assume that most of these kids are fair and decent minded people who want to pay back the debt incurred for their overseas studies. How can they do it? Not many ways right? IB is one of the fastest and easiest ways for them to do so.

This is unlike your average local school undergrad who has a greater degree of leeway in choosing his/her career path, hence explaining why you see a good number of FCH in places like O&G, FMCG etc. So my point to you is that yes, while you're right that many overseas uni graduates dominate the banking and financial services industry in Singapore, the caveat is that if you think hard about it, it is about because they put themselves in such a situation. So probably 90% or more of overseas uni grads would apply for FO roles as compared to say top 10% of local uni grads who might be interested in the industry.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I guess I'm being shown a more accurate picture. Or we are not considering the percentages of those getting BB FO within their group, one being Ivy and another being local >3.8 GPA.

Recruitment, and you'll soon find out in most things in work, is a percentages game. You can only push the percentages in your favor but the percentage doesn't go to 1. Harvard, 4.0 GPA, impressive CCAs but with a lousy attitude or lack of personality, the MD across the table can't imagine him rocking the show with the associates.

My stance is that coming from an Ivy league school, and the other top schools (Stanford, MIT) for emphasis, has its pull in pushing the numbers in your favor. And I haven't yet talk about other factors - alumni. A team ran by Ivy League kids might want an Ivy League guy to join them. Rightly or wrongly, this is the case. This is recruitment. This is life.

So while I accept all those stories of local school grads with >3.8 GPA getting BB FO jobs, isn't it more accurate that we consider how many such grads applied. For this group, maybe only 10% got the penultimate interview. If you're from Ivy League, you'll have a 50%. Then yes, it'll all up to you now.

Are we comparing the chances of identically smart people getting the BB FO job or what?

I didn't say the top 10% of local unis is as smart as the top 10% of Harvard.

My point is, your intelligence matters much more than your degree.

And no, almost every student with >3.9gpa or >4.8cap and relevant experience will be called up for the 1st round of the penulti internship interview, where they will then compete for entry to the superday.

I don't know if your 1% refers to getting the penultimate interview or the actual job. Or that not even 1% of the entire cohort including uninterested students get the actual job.

Well,
1) More than 1% of the cohort in my course gets a job (not internship) in BB FO
2) Not even half of the >3.8gpa in my cohort even intends to work in BB FO
3) My degree course is highly related to banking

Combining 2 and 3, I assume that the percentage of students in other courses that are interested in BB FO is even lower. And a good percentage of those who want to be there eventually get there.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I find this hard to believe. Linkedin was raised up and I stalked such profiles. Never once I saw a BB FO banker with a pharmacy or nursing major. I'm serious.

Because very few pharmacy students consider banking in the first place. A >4.8CAP NUS pharm student would most probably be aiming for grad school.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Agreed. And in the US, they call it Superday. My point is out of those who came from a local university, how many got the penultimate interview.

I wrote that the "interview" for the actual job is the internship stint. I am not talking about superdays. Regardless of background, once you are an intern, you have ample opportunities to prove your worth (or lack of) regardless of the school you come from.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you really want to get technical, I'll settle it this way. Local school graduate 3.8 GPA would be equivalent to a Harvard 3.4 GPA.

Again, percentages. Your friends from NUS now at HSBC, MS and JPM FO IB came from their pool of say 500 applicants graduating from local schools. Those Ivy leaguers out number them by a factor of 3 and came from their pool of say 100 applicants. I know, it sounds like GMAT. Basically, if you're from an Ivy League, you're a rarer commodity which gets selected more.

Rarer commodity = selected more?

The number of nus/ntu/smu accountancy students applying for big 4 audit outnumbers those of private unis. Basically, if you're from a private uni, you're a rarer commodity which gets selected more!!!

These banks have no school or gender quota to meet bro...

I think you meant to argue that Ivy League students are selected more often than local students because the degree is more prestigious?

It's okay, I don't like to make personal attacks... I assume that you were distracted when you wrote that.