Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Tech big deal or not is none of our concern. If you love tech so much, you are free to go do tech and fight it out to get a FAANG spot with 10000 + other CS graduates and whoever else took a codemonkey course.

We are happy that law practice is still a protected industry (for now) so our salaries are artificially inflated.

This is a lawyer forum, so obviously we will discuss lawyer related stuff.

Agreed. And please remember, you’re employed by tech and paid so much because these jobs will be gone in 3-5 years time.
Now they need hardware, software developers, etc. when the system is up and running and self sustaining, you get retrenched (structural unemployment).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Agreed. And please remember, you’re employed by tech and paid so much because these jobs will be gone in 3-5 years time.
Now they need hardware, software developers, etc. when the system is up and running and self sustaining, you get retrenched (structural unemployment).

Yeah.
$15,000 x 12 months x 3 years = $540,000 and no more after that.
Or
$5,000 x 12 months = $60,000
And this increases by $1,000 every year
And once you make partner, $20,000-30,000 per month until 60...

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I wonder how did this forum degen until such a state. I've been a lurker here since 2014. Is it the same few losers going on and on about KCL, fervent, ceca and other racist and sexist comments etc.?

Even worse than the SIM UOL thread which we all assume would be full of rubbish ..

Pretty reflective of the state of the industry really, and the quality of the juniors we see in practice nowadays. Can't take long hours, entitled, low EQ, arrogant, but worse sin is that quality of research and drafting not impressive at all. Really supply side problem.

Indeed. :,(

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I wonder how did this forum degen until such a state. I've been a lurker here since 2014. Is it the same few losers going on and on about KCL, fervent, ceca and other racist and sexist comments etc.?

Even worse than the SIM UOL thread which we all assume would be full of rubbish ..

Pretty reflective of the state of the industry really, and the quality of the juniors we see in practice nowadays. Can't take long hours, entitled, low EQ, arrogant, but worse sin is that quality of research and drafting not impressive at all. Really supply side problem.

To be fair, people being more sensitive to exploitation (and yes lawyers are heavily exploited) is not the same as juniors "can't take long hours", it's more an acknowledgement that there is a systemic rot in the system (the fact that you were exploited and made to work x-hour days just shows that seniors have been exploiting juniors for years and years). Don't fall into the same tekan culture that you were a victim of. Law firms can definitely AFFORD to hire more lawyers, they merely choose not to (and would rather overwork associates) in order to bolster the profits of the Senior Partners.

Also, you must acknowledge that the average lawyer now works harder than the average lawyer 10 years ago (where TCs flowed freely and people weren't desk-bound at odd hours because e-litigation and online 23.59 submissions were not the norm). Arguing otherwise is just nonsensical, the additional pressures of law on juniors (due to technological advancement) is something most senior lawyers freely admit.

Additionally most research/drafting issues are ingrained from direct-seniors (SAs and JPs), meaning that the reason why the standard of drafting has decreased (if it actually has - perhaps you are just looking at the work with an experienced eye) usually has to do with their seniors (i.e. you) not teaching them properly. Your work may have been equally bad in your formative years) but you may have had a good teacher (i.e. seniors). Nowadays, most seniors (my PQE especially) are really self-centered and moan and moan about their juniors, refusing to do anything to help them, when we probably were just as bad at the start. I think it's the competitiveness of the industry and the general exploitation of young lawyers (i.e. there is no time to train your juniors like there was in the past).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

To be fair, people being more sensitive to exploitation (and yes lawyers are heavily exploited) is not the same as juniors "can't take long hours", it's more an acknowledgement that there is a systemic rot in the system (the fact that you were exploited and made to work x-hour days just shows that seniors have been exploiting juniors for years and years). Don't fall into the same tekan culture that you were a victim of. Law firms can definitely AFFORD to hire more lawyers, they merely choose not to (and would rather overwork associates) in order to bolster the profits of the Senior Partners.

Also, you must acknowledge that the average lawyer now works harder than the average lawyer 10 years ago (where TCs flowed freely and people weren't desk-bound at odd hours because e-litigation and online 23.59 submissions were not the norm). Arguing otherwise is just nonsensical, the additional pressures of law on juniors (due to technological advancement) is something most senior lawyers freely admit.

Additionally most research/drafting issues are ingrained from direct-seniors (SAs and JPs), meaning that the reason why the standard of drafting has decreased (if it actually has - perhaps you are just looking at the work with an experienced eye) usually has to do with their seniors (i.e. you) not teaching them properly. Your work may have been equally bad in your formative years) but you may have had a good teacher (i.e. seniors). Nowadays, most seniors (my PQE especially) are really self-centered and moan and moan about their juniors, refusing to do anything to help them, when we probably were just as bad at the start. I think it's the competitiveness of the industry and the general exploitation of young lawyers (i.e. there is no time to train your juniors like there was in the past).

Excuses, get good

Why bother teaching juniors? The hours don’t contribute to my billables anyway.
Also I went through things the hard way, why shouldn’t they do the same?

You call this toxic? Or Selfish ?

I say this is the norm. I never had anybody teaching me since my trainees days and had to figure things out on my own. When I made mistakes I get badly scolded.

The same should go to my juniors. The industry is a brutal one. Go find things out on your own. Don’t expect me to teach. I have my billables to take care of.

- This is how I managed to survive past 7Th years.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Why bother teaching juniors? The hours don’t contribute to my billables anyway.
Also I went through things the hard way, why shouldn’t they do the same?

You call this toxic? Or Selfish ?

I say this is the norm. I never had anybody teaching me since my trainees days and had to figure things out on my own. When I made mistakes I get badly scolded.

The same should go to my juniors. The industry is a brutal one. Go find things out on your own. Don’t expect me to teach. I have my billables to take care of.

- This is how I managed to survive past 7Th years.

Depends on each experience. I was lucky to have seniors who took hours to guide me through the work and the mistakes I made. Unfortunately the WFH arrangements make it more difficult for me to guide my juniors since we do not even get the chance to interact properly.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Why bother teaching juniors? The hours don’t contribute to my billables anyway.
Also I went through things the hard way, why shouldn’t they do the same?

You call this toxic? Or Selfish ?

I say this is the norm. I never had anybody teaching me since my trainees days and had to figure things out on my own. When I made mistakes I get badly scolded.

The same should go to my juniors. The industry is a brutal one. Go find things out on your own. Don’t expect me to teach. I have my billables to take care of.

- This is how I managed to survive past 7Th years.

Yeah but this mindset (shared by many) is why the industry is toxic. Contrast this with the medical field where everyone "protects" each other and the parties work together to push costs up and keep competition low (so teaching juniors isn't seen as some taboo waste of time). If we had more respect for our own time (and agreed not to work like monkeys for peanuts) it would help tremendously. Everyone could do less work for more pay. But instead we have toxic senior management teaching toxic seniors to expect everyone to perform unrealistic amounts of work and constantly pushing prices down in some manic race to the bottom. However, while pushing prices down, they expect juniors to achieve higher billables targets so that they don't receive any cuts to their profit share.

Not blaming you at all for your thinking (I'm sure lots of us share the same mindset of self preservation and MYOB). I fully understand your position. In an industry where there is a lot of dog eat dog type personalities, you don't get praised doing non-billables (teaching juniors etc). But that's a little short sighted considering a well taught junior reduces alot of administrative and other chokepoints down the line. It's just that we are overloaded so badly by partners (who had it so much better in the past) that everyone believes that there's only enough room in their own lifeboats to care for themselves. As long as the older generation exists to teach these toxic habits to seniors, the churn rate and dropout rate will continue to be high and the industry will continue to be unsustainably fat at the top (once you make partner you just delegate) and **** at the bottom.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyone heard of Lawasia before? Run by some datuk Paul Supramaniam who seems to have been quite a high flyer in his heyday. Is it a good firm?

Worked there before. Man is a bully. Got his lawyers to write his son's dissertation, and then called the police when the fact kena leaked to the university. Didn't pay salary on time.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Why bother teaching juniors? The hours don’t contribute to my billables anyway.
Also I went through things the hard way, why shouldn’t they do the same?

You call this toxic? Or Selfish ?

I say this is the norm. I never had anybody teaching me since my trainees days and had to figure things out on my own. When I made mistakes I get badly scolded.

The same should go to my juniors. The industry is a brutal one. Go find things out on your own. Don’t expect me to teach. I have my billables to take care of.

- This is how I managed to survive past 7Th years.

Hypothetical: you have abusive parents and according to your logic, you should abuse your future children, as they should go through what you’ve gone through.

Really can’t believe a critical thinking professional that literally reads and applies the rules governing our society can have such a mindset. This is textbook corrective justice and any lawyer worth their salt can tell the difference between continuing blatant, exploitative toxicity and forging a competitive environment for growth.

All the best floating through life with your stagnant attitude towards personal growth.