Property Agents make A LOT of Money

Originally Posted by Wiseman1

Ok, so you are telling me the average singaporeans are very cash rich now and can very comfortably afford to splurge on all these ridiculously and highly priced properties??? Property developers and agents are making very humble profits and not over-charging at the expense of home buyers???Get real!!!

Singaporeans financially savvy???My foot....they just behave like monkeys and follow the crowd all the time...

Can you name me anyone who did not take up huge 30 year mortages to finance their expensive home purchases and as a result would have to work till their dying days to support the mortage payments?

Or can you name me anyone who can look you in the eye and very confidently say that they could finance their mortages for many months even if they lose their jobs or their spouses cant work and hence forego the benefits of double incomes???

You simply cant face up to the fact of a property bubble collapse cos you are one of those countless idiots who have mindlessly sank huge amounts of monies into bricks and motars....wake up lah.....the correction would come sooner or later.......meanwhile you can choose not to believe and continue to party on....

The answer to both your question is ME and ME! Being financially savvy has got nothing to do with nationality. You may want to check out how people in other countries spend, and you will be surprise. I do agree that the property prices are rather high now, I just hope when it sinks it wont be as disastrous as Titanic.

Originally Posted by Unregistered_Making Sense

Thanks for the advice. Of course anyone whom are into investments, should have emergency funds. So long as one be prudent when times are bad. Also, for whatever investment, I always tell myself, "what if" this happen, that happens, can I still sustain the mortgage? Such big investment may not be for the faint hearted. Ha ha.

However, what's left from me will go to my family eventually, so long it is not "debt".

Some people just need the "motivation" to move on, for me, properties in Singapore is always a safe investment, looking at the size of our nation, what else do we have. To leverage, you need maximize your return, ultimately we all work for a better future. A person does not buy properties to live in, but to maximize his income and thereby getting passive income (rental) out of it. It is quite straight forward for my stand point. ha ha.

New home owner should go for brand new HDB (BTO) as a start, it will form bases for your future investment portfolio. Imagine how many percent your flat will worth after 10 years . Single should get themselves a small HDB flat or apartment, rather them renting a place.

I don't think anyone is disputing that passive income is good, and that it is important to have one to have investments, to build up your retirement nest.

The question is : is property investment a good move now, when all fundamental indicators (with the exception of excess liquidity) pointing to an overpriced market? To me the answer is a pretty resounding no.

I disagree with the statement that property investment is always safe in land scarce Singapore. There has been too many examples of prime properties collapsing in prices at the trough of the cycle in the past.

Buying at a price of x and seeing the price go down to 0.5x then selling after 15 years at 1.2x is not the mark of a good investment. Buying at 0.5x or 0.7x and selling after 5 yrs at 1.2x is a good investment. That also means being able to analyze relative value in order to optimally time your purchase instead of taking a passive buy and hold approach, and relying on the macro concept of land scarcity and leverage to clock in your gains.

Remember the generally upward trajectory of property prices our parents and grandparents enjoyed no longer applies for us. From 1980 to today, my parents house value went up by 35 times. There is no way this happens again in the next 30 years. a doubling in value is probably optimistic. Salaries are just not keeping pace. What does this mean? Well the main implication is that a blind buy and hold approach will be a lot less effective for us than for our forefathers.

So things are fundamentally different now and we need to recognize and adapt accordingly to be successful going forward. Hence to buy today with so many red flags out there is hardly prudent.

Originally Posted by Wiseman1

Can you name me anyone who did not take up huge 30 year mortages to finance their expensive home purchases and as a result would have to work till their dying days to support the mortage payments?

Or can you name me anyone who can look you in the eye and very confidently say that they could finance their mortages for many months even if they lose their jobs or their spouses cant work and hence forego the benefits of double incomes???

You simply cant face up to the fact of a property bubble collapse cos you are one of those countless idiots who have mindlessly sank huge amounts of monies into bricks and motars....wake up lah.....the correction would come sooner or later.......meanwhile you can choose not to believe and continue to party on....

Me. My mortgage for a freehold condo, my home, has 16 years left. I have an iron rice bowl (bonded for five years), my savings can sustain the mortgage for two years. Other than the housing loan I have zero debt as I don't have a car, have no kids, and have no expensive hobbies, maintaining a comfortable but unflashy lifestyle.

Parents said I was silly not to get a bigger, more prime, more expensive condo. But I believe in safety. No one will help if I get into negative equity. Not even parents.

After the crash, plan to get my savings into condo#2. For now I wait, patiently.

Certainly, with no risk, there is no profit. I have a friend who bought three condos. Sure, he is sitting on fantastic paper profit now. The question is what happens when prices fall.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Me. My mortgage for a freehold condo, my home, has 16 years left. I have an iron rice bowl (bonded for five years), my savings can sustain the mortgage for two years. Other than the housing loan I have zero debt as I don't have a car, have no kids, and have no expensive hobbies, maintaining a comfortable but unflashy lifestyle.

Parents said I was silly not to get a bigger, more prime, more expensive condo. But I believe in safety. No one will help if I get into negative equity. Not even parents.

After the crash, plan to get my savings into condo#2. For now I wait, patiently.

Certainly, with no risk, there is no profit. I have a friend who bought three condos. Sure, he is sitting on fantastic paper profit now. The question is what happens when prices fall.

Wow.. what do you do for a living?? Seems like you have a high monthly income.. Is your wife also a high income earner?? Unfortunately, some wives are super high maintenance.. Every months swipe husband's credit card for SPA, slimming package, Branded handbags, beauty salons... You are very lucky man.. I envy your situation...

Originally Posted by Unregistered

From 1980 to today, my parents house value went up by 35 times. There is no way this happens again in the next 30 years.

It will happen again, just count on the Fed.

The Business Times
August 19, 2011, 11.56 pm (Singapore time)

Gold hits new record on renewed safe-haven bid

NEW YORK - Gold set a record high on Friday on safe-haven buying but US stocks and commodities rebounded after the US dollar plunged to a record low against the Japanese yen on speculation authorities will not halt the yen's surge.

Spot gold jumped to record US$1,877 an ounce and was last trading near US$1,850, still on track for its biggest one-month rise in nearly 12 years in August.

[Wiseman1]

Originally Posted by Unregistered_Making sense

No one (all Singaporeans) is behaving like monkey, unless u admit being one . It is just like getting a "good" school for your kids. Who doesn't want the best for their lives.

Seriously, do all you guys pay 30 yrs mortgages? I believed some will move on after a few years, or you will repay the loan amounts as soon as possible, who wants to pay interest (extra) to banks.

Who can finance his mortgage for rest of his life? Come on, you can too ask who can finance his car loan for 5 yrs? Every person need to work by hook or by crooks. We need to work for some purpose, either to get a HDB flat, or private residential. Without hopes, who will work hard. Basic common sense.

If you can predict correction, then all properties analyst can sit down and shake legs and let you do the talking. Please have a more macro view of the economy. Some economies are not doing well, some are keep it up. You need to look at investors in channeling their funds for investment. Singapore has a good ratings (bonds market), and many investors are looking at how we perform. And foreign investors are increasingly investing in Singapore properties. Look on the bright side, interest rate is historically low, where else can you park your $$$.

Ha ha, be more optimistic. No risk no gain. Do you expect to work for all your life?

I basically dont know what you are talking about....I talk about A and your response is B.
I am telling u Silly-poreans are over-leveraged on properties. They throw caution to the wind and heap up on property loans to finance expensive property purchases, because they follow the crowd and believe property is the best investment and prices would keep rising. That is what everybody is saying, especially property developers, agents and analysts, so these buyers dont give a damn about the affordability issues.

My friend is working in a big bank in the housing loans application department. She has got the best view. She is saying the way house buyers are stretching themselves to the limit for big mortages is sowing the seeds for big troubles soon....of course the bank is willing to lend to you as long as you have a job now.....when you cant pay, they just re-possess the house and wait for market conditions to improve to offload, no loss to them at all

Since you are so bullish and think the party would not end, good luck to you. A word of advice: If you invest in property based on advice of property analysts, you are courting for trouble. They should be the last person you listen to, all of them have vested interests...

[Wiseman1]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Me. My mortgage for a freehold condo, my home, has 16 years left. I have an iron rice bowl (bonded for five years), my savings can sustain the mortgage for two years. Other than the housing loan I have zero debt as I don't have a car, have no kids, and have no expensive hobbies, maintaining a comfortable but unflashy lifestyle.

Parents said I was silly not to get a bigger, more prime, more expensive condo. But I believe in safety. No one will help if I get into negative equity. Not even parents.

After the crash, plan to get my savings into condo#2. For now I wait, patiently.

Certainly, with no risk, there is no profit. I have a friend who bought three condos. Sure, he is sitting on fantastic paper profit now. The question is what happens when prices fall.

I always find this Singaporean obsession with property investment very unhealthy and illogical.....I would like to remind you that our country is not a going concern....if you are accounting trained you would know what I mean......Singapore may not be around 100 years from now, or even 50 years, we are too small and the population is going down....we may be a one time hit miracle that's all, so if you sink so much money into houses, are you they would be worth anything 50 years from now???

the conventional argument is always land is scarce here so property investments would not go wrong, the favorite tagline from developers and agents.....what if there is no more Singapore in 50 years???

Originally Posted by Wiseman1

I always find this Singaporean obsession with property investment very unhealthy and illogical.....I would like to remind you that our country is not a going concern....if you are accounting trained you would know what I mean......Singapore may not be around 100 years from now, or even 50 years, we are too small and the population is going down....we may be a one time hit miracle that's all, so if you sink so much money into houses, are you they would be worth anything 50 years from now???

the conventional argument is always land is scarce here so property investments would not go wrong, the favorite tagline from developers and agents.....what if there is no more Singapore in 50 years???

Why "the population is going down"? Our population is going up, not going down, with a target of 6.5 million.

Singapore changed hands 4 times in the past hundred years from British to Japanese to British to Malaya to Singapore. Property is still much safer, relatively speaking, than keeping banana notes or shares of The East India Company or gold bars under your bed.

Originally Posted by Wiseman1

I always find this Singaporean obsession with property investment very unhealthy and illogical.....I would like to remind you that our country is not a going concern....if you are accounting trained you would know what I mean......Singapore may not be around 100 years from now, or even 50 years, we are too small and the population is going down....we may be a one time hit miracle that's all, so if you sink so much money into houses, are you they would be worth anything 50 years from now???

the conventional argument is always land is scarce here so property investments would not go wrong, the favorite tagline from developers and agents.....what if there is no more Singapore in 50 years???

Look I'm the one that has been saying why its not the right time to buy, but even I find your post above impossible to defend.

Reality is - if your assumption is that Singapore is going down in 50 years, there is no point buying anythingin Singapore. Be it property, shares, or even hold sgd.

if that is your hypothesis, the rational approach is to sell your property now, when its at an all time high, and buy something in Europe or the US (when the sgd is at an all time high, and where the property market in these countries - which presumably will still be around in 50 years - are depressed).

Or buy something in China or India where things are still less ridiculously priced, and where u have assurance that they will be around in 50 years.

I honestly doubt you'd consider either option.

Look, there's no doubt property in Singapore is over priced vis a vis fundamentals, but no point going to "chicken little' arguments to make your point either.

Ha ha, I used to think like you, unfortunately, the gain is still going. May not be like my forefather (I think they don't own property at all), or simply my parents. I see how that insufficient funds can really impact their living. What is overpriced market? Ha ha, you are better than the developers, whom are bidding at higher psf, and do you think no taker at all? I have still got a long way to go, so I am not those investors that flip the property once it goes up by few percent.

When to go in, it is very much up to individual. No right or wrong, it is up to the purchaser decision and comfortability. Everyone out there (common sense) is thinking to strike when price is low, but question is when. It is not like share markets, when u think it is the "dip", ppl just move in and buy, thinking it is a bull market. Property is different, it takes expensive transaction cost to flip and get a buyer. But if we live on it or rent out, if market is not sunny, I think we won't lost in the long term, ultimately, the piece of property still belongs to you. Ha ha. cheer up and enjoy life.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I don't think anyone is disputing that passive income is good, and that it is important to have one to have investments, to build up your retirement nest.

The question is : is property investment a good move now, when all fundamental indicators (with the exception of excess liquidity) pointing to an overpriced market? To me the answer is a pretty resounding no.

I disagree with the statement that property investment is always safe in land scarce Singapore. There has been too many examples of prime properties collapsing in prices at the trough of the cycle in the past.

Buying at a price of x and seeing the price go down to 0.5x then selling after 15 years at 1.2x is not the mark of a good investment. Buying at 0.5x or 0.7x and selling after 5 yrs at 1.2x is a good investment. That also means being able to analyze relative value in order to optimally time your purchase instead of taking a passive buy and hold approach, and relying on the macro concept of land scarcity and leverage to clock in your gains.

Remember the generally upward trajectory of property prices our parents and grandparents enjoyed no longer applies for us. From 1980 to today, my parents house value went up by 35 times. There is no way this happens again in the next 30 years. a doubling in value is probably optimistic. Salaries are just not keeping pace. What does this mean? Well the main implication is that a blind buy and hold approach will be a lot less effective for us than for our forefathers.

So things are fundamentally different now and we need to recognize and adapt accordingly to be successful going forward. Hence to buy today with so many red flags out there is hardly prudent.