pay for gov/public sector vs mnc vs sme

Originally Posted by cslee

According to the latest post of this website, an above-average COO / GM at 75 percentile made $15K. According to your definition, a COO is a low level manager. Never mind if there is only 1 COO per private company and there are usually several MX9 in any single government agency. So, where do you think you'll stand a higher chance to get into that level?

Look here, I have no interest in getting into that whole argument about fake titles, real titles, small co. big co. etc. If you include in SMEs, even ah beng mobile shop boss is called CEO. My friend who runs a small cafe with 4 staff calls himself GM, AFAIK he draws like 4k monthly. 15k basic is only 180k annual, go to any of the HRC salary reports and you will see plenty of positions exceed that.

My point to TS is simple. The world is much bigger than goc jobs. If he thinks he is a strong performer, pte sector grants him plenty of space and opportunity to expand and the potential rewards are much higher than a high performing farmer can ever get in government. If he thinks he is average, dont have the drive to cheong etc, my advice to him was to just opt for civil service.

Originally Posted by bladez87

How many people can actually hit 10k in their working life?
With the employment outlook so horrible, low wages, would people dare to job hop?

For people who have worked in big companies, 10k really is nothing much. I'm not trying to be condescending here, but this is a fact.

If you are very concerned about job security, risks, pay volatility etc, my advice to you is just find a decent stable job in gov sector. Nothing wrong with that, its a valid lifestyle choice.

[cslee]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Look here, I have no interest in getting into that whole argument about fake titles, real titles, small co. big co. etc. If you include in SMEs, even ah beng mobile shop boss is called CEO. My friend who runs a small cafe with 4 staff calls himself GM, AFAIK he draws like 4k monthly. 15k basic is only 180k annual, go to any of the HRC salary reports and you will see plenty of positions exceed that.

My point to TS is simple. The world is much bigger than goc jobs. If he thinks he is a strong performer, pte sector grants him plenty of space and opportunity to expand and the potential rewards are much higher than a high performing farmer can ever get in government. If he thinks he is average, dont have the drive to cheong etc, my advice to him was to just opt for civil service.

Lest you're going to mislead some young ones, please back your statements with facts that the chances of strong performers who join private sectors can outdo his equally strong peers in government sector consistently year-after-year.

The data obtained is from MOM and typically only respectable companies with proper HR would be involved in the survey. Fake titles are usually printed on name cards. Internal HR records are real title, which is used in the survey.

Originally Posted by cslee

Lest you're going to mislead some young ones, please back your statements with facts that the chances of strong performers who join private sectors can outdo his equally strong peers in government sector consistently year-after-year.

The data obtained is from MOM and typically only respectable companies with proper HR would be involved in the survey. Fake titles are usually printed on name cards. Internal HR records are real title, which is used in the survey.

It's well known to people in the know that administrative officers in the civil service make 300k a year before hitting mid-thirties. Upside is almost unlimited so 300k is just the beginning.

Originally Posted by cslee

Lest you're going to mislead some young ones, please back your statements with facts that the chances of strong performers who join private sectors can outdo his equally strong peers in government sector consistently year-after-year.

The data obtained is from MOM and typically only respectable companies with proper HR would be involved in the survey. Fake titles are usually printed on name cards. Internal HR records are real title, which is used in the survey.

You obviously have no clue how MOM data is obtained. MOM aggregates a wide spectrum of companies and industries and does not go only for respectable companies like you asserted, that would defeat the whole point of the exercise - they are supposed to provide nationwide pay trends, not "respectable companies" pay trends. Contrary to your claim, HRC data is the one that only has "respectable companies" particpate because their high consulting fee acts as a natural barrier to smaller companies.

MOM obtains its data primarily from 3 sources - IRAS, DOS & random sampling. IRAS & DOS provides tom MOM scrambled and anoynomous data points that provide only age, salary and job title. These job titles are reflected in IR8A & submitted by the admin department of each company, they are likely going to be business titles as employees who have interacted with various government agencies such as ICA, MOM throughout the year would have inputed their external title instead of their internal title.

Random sampling by MOM consist of them mailing out survey forms sometimes followed by focus group to random companies and basically ask their admin to self decalre. Anything goes & there is no verification done by MOM on whether the titles reflect their jobs. I did one of those before and I remembered putting myself as Sales Director with a pay of 4.7k because that was my title. My boss was listed as Managing Director, pay 6k. It was a SME & there is no such thing as fake title or real title.

Is MOM data useful as a proxy for the average pay of various jobs in Singapore? I would say yes due to their large sample size & exclusive access to tax filings that covers a wide range of companies & industries.

Is it useful to assess the max pay ceiling of a high performing farmer in pte sector vs gov sector? No, it will severly understate pte sector senior management pay due to the real CEO/COO/CFO/Dept Directors being dragged down by the large number of SME managers with fancy titles.

Just take a step back & look at facts and try to remove emotions because of your personal pay experience or the small sample of friends around you:

Government (High performing farmer)
Salary ceiling at MX9 scale high end of 15k (usually called Director or Senior Director) <-- I think this is public enough and everyone will agree.

Private (High performing farmer)
A few good sources available to estimate earnings potential. Let's start with this report which you yourself shared in another thread just a while ago http://www.robertwalters.com.sg/file...urvey-2012.pdf

Lets pick a random page say page 3 "Accounting & Finance":

Base on the table, a 15k salary (ie 180k p.a.) represents the following jobs:
Tax Manager, Treasury Manager, Commercial Manager, FC or FD for a SME

Any of them sound like senior managerial level to you? Are such jobs going to be the end point of a high performing farmer in pte sector? Extremely unlikely. So what does Robert Walters have to say about real senior managerial jobs with "respectable companies"?

CFO: 250 - 450k Pg3
Banking VP for IB: 300 - 430k Pg5
Banking VP for BO roles: 160 - 350k+ Pg10
HRBP: 200 - 400k Pg17
CTO: 320 - 400k Pg20
Legal for IB: 180 - 400k Pg31
Sales & Marketing GM: 200 - 300k+ Pg25
Head of Global Sourcing: 250 - 300k+ Pg31
Regional Prcourement Director: 200 - 300k Pg31
Supply Chain Director: 200 - 300k Pg31

Another source is to look at senior manager pay in local listed companies. Their pay can be found at the discolsure section of all annual reports. Company Disclosure & Information | SGX

Last I checked most were ranged from 500k - 1M, which is way above what a high performing farmer can ever make in gov jobs.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am not saying such pay is typical of the pte sector, I am just answering TS original question that if you think you are good enough, have the drive to move up corporate ladder and money is very important to you, pte sector will have far greater potential rewards that joining the public sector. If he wants work life balance, cruise along & retire at jnr manager level, public sector would be more appropriate because of security & stability.

[bladez87]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It's well known to people in the know that administrative officers in the civil service make 300k a year before hitting mid-thirties. Upside is almost unlimited so 300k is just the beginning.

this has to be a csb

[bladez87]

CFO: 250 - 450k Pg3
Banking VP for IB: 300 - 430k Pg5
Banking VP for BO roles: 160 - 350k+ Pg10
HRBP: 200 - 400k Pg17
CTO: 320 - 400k Pg20
Legal for IB: 180 - 400k Pg31
Sales & Marketing GM: 200 - 300k+ Pg25
Head of Global Sourcing: 250 - 300k+ Pg31
Regional Prcourement Director: 200 - 300k Pg31
Supply Chain Director: 200 - 300k Pg31


How many people can reach such a level in an MNC?
Even for FC/FD, is limited.

In order to support that 3 EOs, there will be many dept below them headed by regional managers, following that managers, and then senior/execs and assistants.

Pay wise:-
If comparing CS vs average SME - CS is likely better
If comparing CS vs big name local firms - CS likely not on par
If comparing CS vs MNC - CS farmers are simply not even on same list/chart/statistics regardless of titles. Only the AOs are comparable.

[poor and stupid]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Pay wise:-
If comparing CS vs average SME - CS is likely better
If comparing CS vs big name local firms - CS likely not on par
If comparing CS vs MNC - CS farmers are simply not even on same list/chart/statistics regardless of titles. Only the AOs are comparable.

Well said!

Originally Posted by bladez87

CFO: 250 - 450k Pg3
Banking VP for IB: 300 - 430k Pg5
Banking VP for BO roles: 160 - 350k+ Pg10
HRBP: 200 - 400k Pg17
CTO: 320 - 400k Pg20
Legal for IB: 180 - 400k Pg31
Sales & Marketing GM: 200 - 300k+ Pg25
Head of Global Sourcing: 250 - 300k+ Pg31
Regional Prcourement Director: 200 - 300k Pg31
Supply Chain Director: 200 - 300k Pg31


How many people can reach such a level in an MNC?
Even for FC/FD, is limited.

In order to support that 3 EOs, there will be many dept below them headed by regional managers, following that managers, and then senior/execs and assistants.

I'm afraid that would be something you have to answer for yourself. My aim is to correct some obvious misconceptions such as 10k very rare in pte sector, COO/GM is paid only 15k etc. You will need to take an honest look at yourself & determine if you have the capabilities & motivation to get there, for sure it will be very competitive & not easy.

If not, honestly joining gov is probably best for you. As long as no major screw up, minimally can retire at MX10 Dy Director level ~8k+ which is not bad. There are after all lots of pte sector ppl who end up jobless at 40+yrs old.