Graduate income

[Chewbm]

And I did not choose engineering because I'm interested in it, but because I thought this degree was very versatile. There would be many job opportunities for me after i graduate, as an engineering degree would be open to quite a few markets, other than being engineers. After graduation I can then choose the career I want after being more exposed to the industry. I'm not sure on this part though. Please correct me.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I saw that you listed alot of engineering related fields as your choices.

I don't know you and I am not here to tell you what to choose.

I think you got 1 point right that your decision will play a very significant role in your life from now on.

So, I will urge you to read the threads on engineering. Hear real life comments from engineers who have gone down the path. You don't have to believe everything they say. Hear the real life comments of the successsful engineers as well. Ultimately, your goal is to get as much data points as you can, and make a decision for yourself.

Someone's experience maybe totally different than your own. The right decision for some maybe the wrong decision for you, vice versa. However, from MY Experience, I believe that there is always an element of truth in the masses. And it seems to me, from my reading of various threads so far, that engineering is a hellish path to take if you are approaching it without aptitude and interests.

My own brother went down the engineering path.
My good friend from JC went down the engineering path.
I know many people who went through the engineering path.
I myself could have ended up down the engineering path.

If anyone important to me asks me for an advice, I would say pick engineering ONLY if you are very sure that it is the path for you. If you are not sure, stay the hell away.

I respectfully disagree. If pay is your key variable, i have learnt the hard way that u have to go to the industry that pays well.

However good an engineer u r, if u r in a cost center in a money losing industry, u will never make good money. Ie if u are the best maintenance or process engineer in a semi con fab, u will find ur pay constrained because (1) the company may not be making money (2) there are plenty of indian or chinese engineers willing to do ur job for less (3) company can get an experienced replacement for a low cost (4) simply no point paying way above mkt for exceptional maintenance engineers. So u realise u r in a dead end job but u can't switch cos u hv to take a pay cut if u switch to a job u hv no experience in and its a crap shoot whether u can earn more in that other job in the long run if u r taking a pay cut to get into the job now .

This is where many disillusioned engineers find themselves midway through their career because they unthinkingly accepted the politically correct nonsense about choosing passion and doing well, and the money will automatically follow.

Reality is. You hv to plan your career carefully. Go where the money is. Not go where u want and hope that money will follow if u do well .

As i always say - there are always exceptions in life. But optimal decisions are never made on the back of exceptions.

Originally Posted by cslee

Think longer term. I believe that in general, you will be rewarded properly if you are top of your profession. (dont start the "number 1 road sweeper" line of argument again.) Top banker. Top lawyer. Top doctor. Top engineer. Top Property agent. Top Hawker.


It is better to pick a profession that you can be very good in rather than a profession where the average salary is high but you have no aptitude in at all..

Sorry i mean i disagree with the above (not the post i had quoted in the previous post).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Sorry i mean i disagree with the above (not the post i had quoted in the previous post).

To add on, if u think about the fundamentals of business, u'd realise that how much u pay someone depends on -

- how much the industry earns
- how much the company earns
- how sustainable are the profits
- how much competitors pay
- whether the employee is easily replaceable
- whether the employee is directly related to revenues (sales vs maintenance)
- whether the employee performed well

So when u really go think about it, your job performance is quite a small factor in the whole compensation equation. Which hammers in my point.

Go where the money is. Following your passion and hoping that money will follow is an incredibly naive mindset which will not guide you to optimal decisions.

Originally Posted by Chewbm

Few days back all I worried about is the income I will earn with regards to the course I choose. This might be due to my will in wanting to earn money quickly so that I can pay my parents back my education fees as well as not living off them.

Don't ever do that. When I was young I thought of supporting my parents too as I am from a poor family. Thus I took the diploma route. While it is true that I start earning money earlier, I got stuck when I reached my thirties and struggle twice as much. Last time no internet forum to seek advice from and nobody in my family knows what a career is.

THINK LONG TERM!

[Chewbm]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

To add on, if u think about the fundamentals of business, u'd realise that how much u pay someone depends on -

- how much the industry earns
- how much the company earns
- how sustainable are the profits
- how much competitors pay
- whether the employee is easily replaceable
- whether the employee is directly related to revenues (sales vs maintenance)
- whether the employee performed well

So when u really go think about it, your job performance is quite a small factor in the whole compensation equation. Which hammers in my point.

Go where the money is. Following your passion and hoping that money will follow is an incredibly naive mindset which will not guide you to optimal decisions.

True true. But it is also hard to predict the industry for the upcoming years. And with my grades I got to make do with the choices I have, which includes engineering. And I'm particular with engineering as I thinks it's quite versatile with the market

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Chewbm

True true. But it is also hard to predict the industry for the upcoming years. And with my grades I got to make do with the choices I have, which includes engineering. And I'm particular with engineering as I thinks it's quite versatile with the market

i hope for your sake that you will actually do well enough in an engineering course for this to be worthwhile. do take a look at the course materials so that you at least know what you are in for. i won't say that engineering is very difficult overall, but it isn't exactly a stroll in the park either.

Originally Posted by Chewbm

True true. But it is also hard to predict the industry for the upcoming years. And with my grades I got to make do with the choices I have, which includes engineering. And I'm particular with engineering as I thinks it's quite versatile with the market

Yup i wld agree that engr is versatile so keeps ur options open. And ur advantage is that u r asking qn early enough in the process 2 enable u to make the appropriate life choices to get u what u want.

Now assuming money is ur key criteria, u may consider the following :
- front office finance pays well - target for first class honors, maybe double deg in accounting and network hard for internship ops
- for engineering
A. choose the right industry ie oil and gas upstream
B. Choose the right area ie ideally end client facing rather than back office roles
- talk to ur seniors, career office, headhunters and your colleagues when u intern - ask about which are the promising industries and areas
- once u figure out which industry, do all that u can to secure a couple of internships in that area
- during ur internship, observe who has the nice cars/houses and seek advice from colleagues on which areas are more lucrative
- start early

I guarantee that most of ur fellow undergrads will not put in the above legwork, and if u do all of the above, and start the process early (ie 1st yr), u will greatly increase ur probability of landing in a good position in your career.

If u do as everyone else does (ie start thinking about it in yr 3), u will likely get ordinary results like everyone else.

It is very difficult to move from operations to front office. Also, the job scope for operations adds very little to your own career development and enrichment. For the higher starting pay it is not worth going into operations route.

Perhaps I give another example, more closer to my own real life experience:

I graduated top 5% of my cohort in accountancy 4+ years ago. Upon graduation, I had the following job offers

1. Audit - $2,400 (in general)
- One of Big4 audit firms had offered me $300 more in lieu of my honors. However, I ended up signing up with another that offered me $2,500. If I was purely looking at start pay shouldn't I have taken the firm that offered me the few hundred dollars more? I didnt, because that firm was known as a slave driver. Also, I had interned in that firm before and was working alot with non-singaporeans. I'll stop at that.

2. Investment Banking Operations - $4,000+

3. Investment Bank, finance trainee program - $4,000+

4. MA program - $3,750

I ended up picking option 4. Not the highest starting pay but a path that I felt would give me the best development prospects.

4+ years later, I am earning considerably more than friends who pursued the ops path.

What if I had gone for the few hundred dollars more pay? $300 or even $500 may seem a big deal when you graduate. When I was drawing $3,750, $4000+ seems like a big deal to me.

Now looking back, I am glad I adopted a longer term outlook rather than focussing on maximising starting pay.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Good advice, but I beg to differ. Money in the pocket is worth twice that's not in the pocket. Who will know if auditing career will not be as smooth-sailing as planned?

That said, with regards to your ops example, I would go for the ops job. Good people can actually progress into well-paid positions from "lowly" ops positions. Taking all things equal (including luck and opportunity), I would say a capable ops guy will make even more than an equally capable auditor. And given that the ops guy makes more, he will have more savings and more investment returns (again assuming all things equal).

Nothing is cast in stone. The advice is all here. It's your life - you take a position and go with it eyes wide open.

Originally Posted by Chewbm

True true. But it is also hard to predict the industry for the upcoming years. And with my grades I got to make do with the choices I have, which includes engineering. And I'm particular with engineering as I thinks it's quite versatile with the market

Mr Chew.... So many kind engineers who're already waist-deep in the quicksand.. with their last few breath... trying their very best to warn you not to enter engineering while you still have the choice...
Despite so many pple want you to LIVE.. but you still want to choose to DIE!!! Well, if that's the case, come on jump in.. The DEVIL is waiting with open arms to eat your soul... Don't say nobody warn you!!!...