Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Unfortunately ... the first firm i ever joined and my first boss were both very much as you described. It really tested my faith and everything I ever believed in.

I was beyond lucky to meet a mentor who showed me that it doesn't have to be this way. He showed me a better way and the moment i was convinced that there were better people out there, i tendered. Sometimes, it really comes down to luck. I would probably share your views had i not met him.

I hope I can find one like you did. I'm in my 2nd firm already ... left the first one very quickly for this reason thinking the 2nd one would be better b/c the MD had a name but realised a few months in that a name doesn't automatically mean quality and hardwork.

Such a pity that some lawyers can go down certain roads and behave so unprofessionally. Disgusting, really.

How is the market for 0PQE , newly qualified associates? say for those who were not retained by their firms.

The legal industry is ultimately primarily a business support industry. How well it does very much depends on the general commence and economy.

THB i think Singapore can only support around 500 new lawyers a year. Anything more the excess probably face unemployment because law firm are not interesting scale, they are into high profit margins.

The work culture in most law firms is toxic. Most of the time the equity partners just want maintain/increase their fat bonuses so what they do is to hire less and squeeze the lower rungs harder when the times are bad. Who in the right mind hire more associates to spread the burden of the current ones?

When people tells me they are reading law (especially, NUS GLB, SMU JD or overseas schools) nowadays, i smile politely and silently chuckle at their horrible decision.

You silently laugh at their horrible decision?

Now that's toxic.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm the poster you quoted... I actually agree with you on all points. Just speaking from my own experiences (obv). The only reason for my post is that I've seen both types but at the small firm level, I've seen more of the type of lawyers I was speaking of than those you were. Honest and honourable lawyers are rare.

It's unfortunate and I hate that this is the case, but it is what it is.

I'm sorry you had the misfortune of working with the disreputes of the profession.

I have an idea of what you're talking about. In my line of practice, I face off a fair bit with lawyers from from the big firms and the small firms.

Despite the lay facade of glamour and "learnedness", there really are 2 stratas of the legal profession.

Its unfair to tar all lawyers who work in solo shops with the same brush. But the sad truth is that many small practices have unethical and dishonest practitioners whose actions bring disrepute to the profession.

Just operating towards pure profits, without any thought about conducting themselves with civility, competence or honour. To say nothing of an actual passion for the law or justice or advancing their clients' interests.

Needless to say, their concern for their trainees and associates, if they do take one under their wing, is bottommost on their priority list.

The level of technical skill in some of these lawyers are sorely lacking. To them, the practice of law has long since become secondary to the primary motive of whatever profits they can get. Perhaps they were once young idealistic associates who aspired to become proficient lawyers too. That level of idealism has since died somewhere along the years of practice.

The unfortunate side effect is that their lay clients, the man-in-the-street who needs access to justice most, are badly served by poor lawyering.

One would recall that several years ago that a bunch of conveyancers were rounded up by the Society for accepting referral fees.

Let me tell you that these things still happen more often than is generally let known.

I started legal practice with a naive notion that the things I do professionally as a lawyer would serve society, whether directly or indirectly.

I do now see that some things lawyers are capable of doing are more of a drag on society than really creating any value or serving any real need.

If you do remain in practice, I hope you find a good mentor who will teach you the value of practice and who hasn't lost that idealism of the good that lawyers can do in society.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm sorry you had the misfortune of working with the disreputes of the profession.

I have an idea of what you're talking about. In my line of practice, I face off a fair bit with lawyers from from the big firms and the small firms.

Despite the lay facade of glamour and "learnedness", there really are 2 stratas of the legal profession.

Its unfair to tar all lawyers who work in solo shops with the same brush. But the sad truth is that many small practices have unethical and dishonest practitioners whose actions bring disrepute to the profession.

Just operating towards pure profits, without any thought about conducting themselves with civility, competence or honour. To say nothing of an actual passion for the law or justice or advancing their clients' interests.

Needless to say, their concern for their trainees and associates, if they do take one under their wing, is bottommost on their priority list.

The level of technical skill in some of these lawyers are sorely lacking. To them, the practice of law has long since become secondary to the primary motive of whatever profits they can get. Perhaps they were once young idealistic associates who aspired to become proficient lawyers too. That level of idealism has since died somewhere along the years of practice.

The unfortunate side effect is that their lay clients, the man-in-the-street who needs access to justice most, are badly served by poor lawyering.

One would recall that several years ago that a bunch of conveyancers were rounded up by the Society for accepting referral fees.

Let me tell you that these things still happen more often than is generally let known.

I started legal practice with a naive notion that the things I do professionally as a lawyer would serve society, whether directly or indirectly.

I do now see that some things lawyers are capable of doing are more of a drag on society than really creating any value or serving any real need.

If you do remain in practice, I hope you find a good mentor who will teach you the value of practice and who hasn't lost that idealism of the good that lawyers can do in society.

Thanks for this. I find this very insightful and also to be very true (i'm doing my TC now). My question is, which i suppose is the difficult part, how do you go about finding a good mentor or know who is one? My current mentor in a reasonably large firm is very aloof and doesn't communicate with me. If there's any work for me, it always flows down to his junior partner before it comes to me. So I don't speak to him (at all) nor am I sure if JP is helping him to evaluate me. I'm worried that I may not be able to get assessed like this - nor am i even sure if his team is hiring. Haha.. this may sound a bit like a rant now :\

Originally Posted by Unregistered

How is the market for 0PQE , newly qualified associates? say for those who were not retained by their firms.

The market is bad... but i know of many small and medium firms happy to hire 0pqe. Pay will be terrible and hours likely worse, but you'll have a job... and more importantly, experience.

It really depends on your expectations. I have juniors telling me they won't accept anything less than $xk - if this is your mentality, then the unfortunate truth is that you will likely be unemployed for some time.

Looking at the newest graduate employment surveys and from personal experience, it is honestly no longer worth it to slog the long hours with little pay that comes with a job in the legal industry. Better to just develop one's coding skills and transition out to a programmer role, which pays as well as a law job and is more intellectually stimulating. Not to mention better hours, from what I hear from programmer/software engineer friends. Any other associates here seriously thinking about transitioning into the programming industry?

hi

i wonder if those who are called after 2016 (the glut) salary will ever reach their peers, since we many have mentioned, the starting has gone down quite a bit..

also regarding our salaries, how low can it go before we say 'no'? i understand that there are alot of people who are having difficulty finding tc/jobs now but...more firms are expecting people to work day and night, even weekends now...

i find it sad that more and more people are planning to leave the industry even before getting called and yet local firms are taking advantage of the glut to lower salaries. few students i have spoke to have told me they intend to stay for the long haul and intends to get out as soon as they are able to...

guys, as a lawyer, do you think it is good to enter another jurisdiction to work and return like banking and other industries?