Cornell vs Cambridge vs SMU

I am usually a silent reader, but I found the post written by that guy (growing up in LA, etc) ridiculous. In fact his English reads a lot like Singlish, so it all smells very fishy to me. I too went to school graduating with an EECS degree from one of the top 2 schools there, it's either Berkeley or Stanford right? 100K from a startup is a lot of bollocks. You usually get some salary with a ton of stock options, otherwise the burn rate of the company is going to be terrible.

SG can rival USA in opportunities (money or otherwise)? Wow, where else in the world can someone doing massages earn millions in stock options just by becoming one of the first employees at Google (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/12/te...2google.html)? We are not even talking about hundreds/thousands of other programmers who make it big. This is in addition to the army of business people, etc who also strike it rich. And this is not about Google. The people at Facebook, Apple, etc too all strike it rich. In fact many of them are richer than the bankers/traders. Which company in Singapore can claim that their product is used by millions of people in the world? Some opportunity.

Forgetting all of the above, even the highest paying jobs in Singapore are all generated by WESTERNERS, by WESTERN banks, earned by WESTERNERS posted here. These are not Singapore created opportunity, there's nothing special in Singapore except the low tax rates and that's about it really. Otherwise most people here will be selling chicken rice or what have you. Just name ONE company here who has an international reputation for a sustained many number of years. Even Creative has pretty much gone down the drain.

Just admit it, people writing posts like that are people who could not make it in the most competitive market in the world. What a loser.

The link above does not work. This one should http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/12/te.../12google.html

Originally Posted by Unregistered

u sure u wont regret the 100k fresh grad pay? i dont get what u mean by the 6k pay here is comparable to the ones u got back there. did u even consider the career progression? ur interest? i feel u have a greater interest in science and tech, yet now u seem to be working in a financial institution instead.

As of right now, I definitely don't regret it. I explained in a prior post how $6k ($72k SGD) is roughly comparable to $100k USD, but essentially it has to do a lot with tax (40% vs 2-3%), a bit with CPF, and the current exchange rate. As for career progression, I feel that the progression in Singapore (financial sector) can be just as fast, if not faster. Plus the pay will really scale up with promotions as well (more on this later in the next post). Interest-wise, though I do enjoy engineering I also love the challenge of finance. And finance is a much more performance-based industry, which also attracts and motivates me. Regardless, my current position allows me to do both so I'm happy

Originally Posted by Unregistered

i think it is definitely more satisfying to work at a startup, have a large part to play in ur startup growth, earn a high starting pay,enjoy stock options and ultimately might even become a co-owner. imo, u seem to have lost one of the biggest opportunity in ur life due to ns.

I totally agree that I may have lost a huge opportunity. I certainly felt that I had at the time. However, now I'm pretty glad that I'm back (the opportunity is still there for me to resume with my company in the US as well). While the work may be more satisfying if you succeed in a startup, you really need to see what percentage of startups actually make it. A tiny fraction last more than 2 years, a fraction of those more than 5, an even smaller sliver will be profitable or even reach IPO. As mentioned, the pay difference is not that significant (and the higher pay you get in the future, the more tax eats it up). As for stock options, I wasn't the founder nor the CEO. Typical stock options for a non-founder CEO will be 2-5%, and everyone else significantly less. Even in the extremely rare case that a startup makes it 'big', the vast majority of people won't get millions of dollars. See my next post for more details.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

no point trying to convince people that working in singapore is better than the us. especially for R&D, which is almost non existent in singapore. in singapore here, the sci and engineering grad dont have people headhunting them like the way u said it, and some of the first class honours student even have to sign on the army for a more stable job. the silicon valley is definitely the place to be if u want to be at the forefront of sci and tech.

On almost all of these points, I totally agree. For pure R&D / tech / science, go to the US, specifically Silicon Valley. The job prospects are generally better, the pay higher, the responsibilities are more interesting, etc etc. I'll only disagree partially with your first claim that working in Singapore is not better than in the US. It really depends on the person and industry -- some combinations of these aspects will yield equal or higher opportunities / pay.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am usually a silent reader, but I found the post written by that guy (growing up in LA, etc) ridiculous. In fact his English reads a lot like Singlish, so it all smells very fishy to me. I too went to school graduating with an EECS degree from one of the top 2 schools there, it's either Berkeley or Stanford right? 100K from a startup is a lot of bollocks. You usually get some salary with a ton of stock options, otherwise the burn rate of the company is going to be terrible.

lol, you don't think spending 3 years in Singapore (2 of which being National Service) will change someone's English to sound more like Singlish? Speaking 'proper' English in army will only make you repeat yourself 2-3 times until you finally give up and give it a more local spin. If you went to Cal/Stanford and studied EECS, that's superb -- though I have to say I'm a bit disappointed that you find this experience so far-fetched. You should know the average starting salary for engineers was about $60k, the good ones were pulling in the league $80k and the best ones were getting about $100k (these are at established companies though, not startups). I agree that $100k from a startup is a pretty uncommon offer. It's usually $60k or so with 0.2-0.4% for an 'early' joiner into a funded startup with say 5-10 people in it and a product that's already at least in the prototype stage (else they'd be founders and making $0). However you need to consider the specific case we are talking about: my colleague and I built the system up from almost scratch, with no VC funding, and making almost nothing at the time. We also had prior obligations that the company wanted to entice us to break -- my buddy had signed a $100k contract with a major tech company whereas I had to return to NS. Once we got funding and our prior obligations were calling us to leave, the founder & CEO needed to keep us at all costs. I'm not saying every startup pays this amount, nor would mine have given the offer in any other circumstance, but that's what happened. Ridiculous situation? Sure, but it happens. Bollocks? Nope.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

SG can rival USA in opportunities (money or otherwise)? Wow, where else in the world can someone doing massages earn millions in stock options just by becoming one of the first employees at Google (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/12/te...2google.html)? We are not even talking about hundreds/thousands of other programmers who make it big. This is in addition to the army of business people, etc who also strike it rich. And this is not about Google. The people at Facebook, Apple, etc too all strike it rich. In fact many of them are richer than the bankers/traders. Which company in Singapore can claim that their product is used by millions of people in the world? Some opportunity.

SG can definitely rival the US in terms of opportunities, given you are in the right position and industry. You do realize that Google is a huge anomaly right?? And citing 'Facebook, Apple, etc' as more evidence is just the same. Having an EECS background from a top uni, have you been part of a startup or even properly researched how equity is divided and the potential to actually get acquired or IPO? If you did, you would know that the vast, vast majority will die within the first year or two after drawing no pay at all. The lucky few will get some funding, last a few more years, but ultimately most of these will still go under. Of the tiny fraction that manage to survive, most will break even or generate small amounts of profit (after expenses, salaries, etc), while only 1 or 2 will really make it 'big'. Of the people in these exceptionally rare companies, only a very small portion will make "millions or more". Save for your founders (who literally went through hell to get there, and still are super diluted by VC funding) and maybe early c-level execs, most hackers will have equity that is measured in basis points (1% = 100 basis points). A $100+ million acquisition / IPO is no joke, but the vast majority of people in the company will still only get a few hundred thousand in return, if even that. This one-time cashout is after years and years of slogging and really beating the incredible odds stacked against you... then what do they do? On the contrary, high-end bankers and traders can easily take home a few hundred thousand to millions each year.

Sure, hundreds if not thousands of hackers can make it big doing startups, but what is that relative to the population? You can't just read a few articles on how <random American kid in his 20s> became a billionaire and base a comparison of opportunities relative to countries on that. Sure, there may be a lucky few that are richer than bankers/traders, but try a comparison of the average techie vs. your average banker/trader. You can't make blanket statements generalizing industries and countries based on a specific group that is comprises much less than a percent of the population. If you play that angle, I'll can bring up hedge fund managers, who get multi-billion dollar bonuses every year. Talking about corner-cases and opportunity: what other country can claim multi-million dollar annual salaries for their politicians??

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Forgetting all of the above, even the highest paying jobs in Singapore are all generated by WESTERNERS, by WESTERN banks, earned by WESTERNERS posted here. These are not Singapore created opportunity, there's nothing special in Singapore except the low tax rates and that's about it really. Otherwise most people here will be selling chicken rice or what have you. Just name ONE company here who has an international reputation for a sustained many number of years. Even Creative has pretty much gone down the drain.

I never said that Singapore or Singaporeans generate the opportunities. I just said that there are opportunities in Singapore. Who cares who generates it? You keep talking about Singaporean companies -- when did anyone ever imply that Singaporean companies generate these great opportunities? I specifically mentioned global companies. I'm talking about the Singapore environment (namely, low taxes and a population that is self-limiting career-wise), not the ability for Singapore to create awesome companies.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just admit it, people writing posts like that are people who could not make it in the most competitive market in the world. What a loser.

Again, I'm sorely disappointed at the arguments you make and your pessimism towards life, especially since you went to a 'top 2 school in EECS' (right?). You can call me a failure, a loser, or whatever you want. It won't change my past, future, opportunities, or pay All I can say is that at least I've inspired and garnered the appreciation of various people from my post(s), which is worth the small amount of effort to write it.

Actually, I know a few hedge fund managers in Singapore who earned hundreds of millions of dollars just last year. Some of them are even Singaporeans and Malaysians, not foreigners. I also know more excellent fund managers who are closing their funds for good because they failed. In fact, one of them closed up in 2008 and only just went back to his old bulge bracket firm because it takes 5 years to wind down some hedge funds!

In my day, I met some of the super managers like Sanjay Motwani, Stephen Mandel, Julian Robertson and even the now infamous Raj Rajaratnam, who even tried to recruit me at some point. They are extraordinarily smart people, often thinking two steps ahead of where you are and you have to struggle to keep up with them. Basically, it takes an extraordinary mind to make billions. Its not just luck.

Global Markets in Singapore also does pretty well. One fixed income chap I know drives a $1.5m Murcie LP640 and he just smokes in it and trashes it - treats it like a Hyundai. Just hang around the One Raffles Quay carpark in the morning and you will see it.

To Unregistered Yesterday, 10:17 PM ,

My first time posting even though I've been following this forum for a while, just some thoughts... Admittedly, I was one of the doubtful ones when you mentioned $100k USD (heh that almost gives fresh grad bankers a run for their money, especially bcz of the crisis) but now that you've clarified, it seems more plausible. I did an engineering bachelors and subsequently masters in the US (top ~3-5 USnews&reports) and I do regret not pursuing a CS degree (what more in California), as it was a lot difficult to find a good job in recent years outside of this industry (my CS friends on the other way were receiving offers left, right and center, even with mediocre results, by my standards that is). I'm not sure if I would say $100k USD is equivalent to $6k/month SGD in Sg. Perhaps you guys pay ridiculous taxes in Cali (tax capital in the US lol) but in most other places aside from the madness that goes on in NY/Chicago/Boston, $100k USD would likely be worth more compared to $6k/month SGD. I admit I've not done an extensive investigation into this, just a quick ballpark figure (perhaps I might do one and see what I come up with).

My advice would also be to stay in the US if you intend to pursue an engineering field. This I am most certainly sure of. Typically, most companies will offer at least $60k USD base for bachelors and $75k USD base for masters. There is almost no way for any engineering company to match that in SG, not to mention career prospects and the type of "cutting edge" work you'll be doing. When evaluating your offer, be very sure to analyze the state taxes that you will be liable for. It can vary *significantly* between states. Another factor, would be living costs which is needless to say.

At this point, since returning to Sg, I've pretty much given up on engineering in Sg (none of the engineering related MNCs want to even talk to me), so I'm not about cast any stones at others who have gone down this path into finance/consulting sectors, being equally guilty myself.

*waits for impending flaming by other posters.. sigh*

^^^ This is the worst advice. Hellooooo... has anyone heard of the US unemployment rate at 9%? and its worse as underemployment is rampant. Lawyers are working as paralegals. Senior engineers are working as technicians. Your advice might have been good 11 years ago before the tech bust, but right now its just ignorant. If you liked the US so much, why are you back? Engineering is an overhyped job in Singapore anyway, only geeks and nerds with no personality do it in western countries.

I think someone proved earlier using an internet calculator that NO WAY is $6K in Singapore equivalent to USD100K so don't be too believing. If the guy really earned USD100K, he is hurting now.... taking the bus and living in HDB.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

^^^ This is the worst advice. Hellooooo... has anyone heard of the US unemployment rate at 9%? and its worse as underemployment is rampant. Lawyers are working as paralegals. Senior engineers are working as technicians. Your advice might have been good 11 years ago before the tech bust, but right now its just ignorant.

Have you worked in the US before (better yet, in the last 3 years)? There are winners even in a bear market. Its no different for the US. You just need to pick the right field, as the other poster mentioned earlier. Had I known earlier, I would have opted for a different course of study.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you liked the US so much, why are you back? Engineering is an overhyped job in Singapore anyway, only geeks and nerds with no personality do it in western countries.

Why? Bcz I couldn't find a job in my field and I didn't wish to wait after I graduated. In regards to your opinion of engineers in western countries, its clearly a generalization and I'm not going to address it further.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think someone proved earlier using an internet calculator that NO WAY is $6K in Singapore equivalent to USD100K so don't be too believing. If the guy really earned USD100K, he is hurting now.... taking the bus and living in HDB.

Are you considering based on the amount he/she can save or his "standard" of living? I would probably say closer to $7-8k. Not every person values things similarly. You might take a bus/mrt in SG bcz its convenient and cheap. In the US, owning a car might be a necessity to get to work. Furthermore, if you live in an expensive city, you might only be able to afford a small apartment, to ensure that rent doesn't eat up too much of your salary. In SG, someone else might be perfectly fine staying with his/her parents, thereby saving more $. There are a whole host of factors to consider based on what each person considers a "good" standard of living. And... we haven't even considered other intangible reasons.

Unfortunately, the earlier poster is right about engineers. Years ago, I graduated from a top engineering program in the US and got into a dream job at one of the foremost research labs in the world (owned by a huge company). After a few years of really hard work, I got completely stuck at Senior Researcher. The only step up was Research Manager, which meant giving up the technical work if I wanted more pay. Being in engineering really sucks pay wise at large firms if you want to stay technical.

Anyway story ends well as I used my math ability to get a job on Wall Street and worked like a mad dog 24 hours a day. Eventually relocated back to Singapore as the head of a department.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Are you considering based on the amount he/she can save or his "standard" of living? I would probably say closer to $7-8k. Not every person values things similarly. You might take a bus/mrt in SG bcz its convenient and cheap. In the US, owning a car might be a necessity to get to work. Furthermore, if you live in an expensive city, you might only be able to afford a small apartment, to ensure that rent doesn't eat up too much of your salary. In SG, someone else might be perfectly fine staying with his/her parents, thereby saving more $. There are a whole host of factors to consider based on what each person considers a "good" standard of living. And... we haven't even considered other intangible reasons.

Don't know about you, but I'll rather earn USD100K/yr and live in Berkeley in an apartment overlooking SFO Bay and take valley girls for dates in my USD20K Chevy Camaro than work in Singapore for $6K/mo, live in my parent's dank HDB flat and date on the bus!