a sad day for engineering

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I thought startups here don't pay well.

Well, they don't. Although i'm an Associate Software Engineer myself, and they don't even want to pay more than 1.6k for someone like me who have 1 year+ experience and a portfolio with filled with software development work in both mobile and PC applications.

Why? Foreigners can do more with less. But from my understanding, they don't. They're more suited for being paper engineers than actual engineers.

My advice, go abroad and don't come back. That's what I'll be doing so once I'd get my Degree in Electrical Engg (I may persue an additional Degree in Physics as I don't see much in staying in pure engineering sad to say)

It's the same scene in IT so as the same in Engineering. Foreign 'Talents' is taking up the spots, but most can't even do the job right.

Originally Posted by Elozt

Well, they don't. Although i'm an Associate Software Engineer myself, and they don't even want to pay more than 1.6k for someone like me who have 1 year+ experience and a portfolio with filled with software development work in both mobile and PC applications.

Why? Foreigners can do more with less. But from my understanding, they don't. They're more suited for being paper engineers than actual engineers.

My advice, go abroad and don't come back. That's what I'll be doing so once I'd get my Degree in Electrical Engg (I may persue an additional Degree in Physics as I don't see much in staying in pure engineering sad to say)

It's the same scene in IT so as the same in Engineering. Foreign 'Talents' is taking up the spots, but most can't even do the job right.

From my personal experience and observations: Yes, startups like to hire cheap workers from India and Asean region. These are what I call mid-range jobs. Even for higher-end jobs like those in banking IT, if you get an Indian as CEO, CIO or head of something (thanks to our government's excellent pro-foreign talent policies), do you think he'll not hire more Indians? They can talk about anti-discrimination all they want, but take a walk in Changi Business Park and Marina Bay Financial Centre and you'll know the truth.

Yes, you should get out this place while you're still young.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

From my personal experience and observations: Yes, startups like to hire cheap workers from India and Asean region. These are what I call mid-range jobs. Even for higher-end jobs like those in banking IT, if you get an Indian as CEO, CIO or head of something (thanks to our government's excellent pro-foreign talent policies), do you think he'll not hire more Indians? They can talk about anti-discrimination all they want, but take a walk in Changi Business Park and Marina Bay Financial Centre and you'll know the truth.

Yes, you should get out this place while you're still young.

Frankly once you seen enough of this, you will get numb or immune to it. Personally I work in Changi Biz Park and seen more than my fair share of such discrimination whereby once u let a black in, sooner or later the whole dept will be filled with black just like the chinese game weiqi.

My advise, migrate. just like our forefathers who come to SEA to escape the hardship in China. The process is the same just that today we are much more lucky than them due to technological advancement. Come to think of it, things go round in a circle hahaha

Rich singaporeans already starting to migrate to other countries like Aussie or New Zealand. Ordinary folks like us can either marry a foreign wife and use that as a way to migrate or invest in other countries (provided you got the money).

Anyway work hard, save some money, invest wisely, do some side businesses (I know same old advise) and get the FXXX out of here. Singapore is getting smelly each day. hahaha

[aimless74]

hi ,

yes agree with your findings
indeed singaporeans engineering career or job is limited or getting limited
if u are too expensive to be hired, it give the overhead.
for indian/china workers, they are usually from a lower living standard and thus
they can opt for a lower income and replace the higher income engineer.
most employer or bosses feel that engineers are cheap these days , either
u work at this rate or they bring in indian/china/piony etc

i do not see any form of recovery in engineering field in singapore at all
and infact i feel it is shrinking rapidly. i am interested to find out what engineering fresh grad landing a job and how to sustain that job in the long run.

regards

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Frankly once you seen enough of this, you will get numb or immune to it. Personally I work in Changi Biz Park and seen more than my fair share of such discrimination whereby once u let a black in, sooner or later the whole dept will be filled with black just like the chinese game weiqi.

My advise, migrate. just like our forefathers who come to SEA to escape the hardship in China. The process is the same just that today we are much more lucky than them due to technological advancement. Come to think of it, things go round in a circle hahaha

Rich singaporeans already starting to migrate to other countries like Aussie or New Zealand. Ordinary folks like us can either marry a foreign wife and use that as a way to migrate or invest in other countries (provided you got the money).

Anyway work hard, save some money, invest wisely, do some side businesses (I know same old advise) and get the FXXX out of here. Singapore is getting smelly each day. hahaha

Originally Posted by aimless74

hi ,

yes agree with your findings
indeed singaporeans engineering career or job is limited or getting limited
if u are too expensive to be hired, it give the overhead.
for indian/china workers, they are usually from a lower living standard and thus
they can opt for a lower income and replace the higher income engineer.
most employer or bosses feel that engineers are cheap these days , either
u work at this rate or they bring in indian/china/piony etc

i do not see any form of recovery in engineering field in singapore at all
and infact i feel it is shrinking rapidly. i am interested to find out what engineering fresh grad landing a job and how to sustain that job in the long run.

regards

IT jobs in banks pay quite well, typically above 100k if you are a middle manager in mid-thirties, but because there's no ethnic quota like in HDB, you see only one particular culture dominating the entire banking IT sector in Singapore.

Singaporeans first my foot.

[aimless74]

hi

so you feel that it is lesser preference of a singaporean in those sector.
i am not in IT but in software engineering so i not sure in bank IT job.
is the particular culture cheaper or better to higher or indeed their education is better or their exposure to IT is better than over graduates?
just want to map out the differences between local and "FT" and finding out
what are the various reason companies are choosing those instead of us as well as while we are being squeeze out, what are the option left for us..

regards

Originally Posted by Unregistered

IT jobs in banks pay quite well, typically above 100k if you are a middle manager in mid-thirties, but because there's no ethnic quota like in HDB, you see only one particular culture dominating the entire banking IT sector in Singapore.

Singaporeans first my foot.

Originally Posted by aimless74

hi

so you feel that it is lesser preference of a singaporean in those sector.
i am not in IT but in software engineering so i not sure in bank IT job.
is the particular culture cheaper or better to higher or indeed their education is better or their exposure to IT is better than over graduates?
just want to map out the differences between local and "FT" and finding out
what are the various reason companies are choosing those instead of us as well as while we are being squeeze out, what are the option left for us..

regards

No, these fellows in banks are not cheaper. And Singaporeans can definitely do the jobs they do. I'm 100% certain. The reason they got in is because the whole gang is from the same culture. A while ago, someone already wrote to the papers about the problem of enclaves in MNCs. I guess the official stance from government that such PMET jobs are subject to competition from international talent coming here to fight with us. Judge for yourself how fair is that when the heads and CxOs are from the same foreign culture.

I really hope Singaporeans can build up their own enclaves and fend for ourselves. We must be more united as our government doesn't really care about us PMETs.

Enclaves can't be helped.

Originally Posted by paymemore

i hold a degree in engineering, with plenty of portfolio in software engineering. told my prospective employer that i can code in anything from andriod to apple devices to java. they were impressed with my engineering skills despite having no professional experiences. this is because, i am currently in the finance sector.

i asked my fellow course mates who are in this line, they are all paid at least 3 to 3.6k. so i requested for 3.5k and promised to work ot, weekends and to drive their sales. apps on the store can easily earn their revenue and a good mobile programmer definitely cost much higher.

however, they told me they can offer no more than 3k. i am currently drawing 3.3k in finance back-office, a comfortable and stress-free administrative environment with no ot. i think it makes no sense to do a job switch back. are andriod/apple programmers so dis-respected in the market? it's no wonder that sg engineers are facing sad times.

1) You may already know this: sw engg has little to do with actual sw coding. Think sw engg, think uml diagrams and language independent design.

2) Some companies prefer the title 'sw developer' or 'sw technician' to differentiate coders from architects (engineers). Apply for the right one.

3) FYP or other mini projects is not considered experience in the engg industry esp in terms of sw engg. I think arts students are the only ones who can make good use of their portfolio for fresh job applications.

4) code in anything.....to java? Don't mash languages and platforms together. Whether intentional or not, it is not professional. It may get pass HR but definitely won't get pass the tech guys at an interview. Perhaps you should say that you are proficient in Java and have exp developing sw on so and so devices (platforms). Describing the architecture of relevant APIs is a surefire way to convince the tech guys at an interview.

5) Currently, when we hear 'apps', we think of 'non-critical sw for mobile devices'. Developers for casual/simple apps are not paid well for obvious reasons. Financial apps for big banks are probably the only ones that pays well. If you want a higher pay with sw, drop the 'apps' related jobs and go for companies that require mission or safety critical sw. Testers are paid plenty, coders are paid highly and architects are paid handsomely. I can vouch for that. "Cheap and good" hires do not exist in these companies.

[paymemore]

thanks for the quality advice.

perhaps i was too caught up in coding and producing results, and failed to look at the bigger picture from the employer's pov.

i still hold the hope that fresh graduates like me will someday say that engineering has the brightest future in sg.