Lawyer Salary

Any seniors can share about the exit options (beyond the legal industry) for a 1-2 PQE lawyer? Government? (But saturated with scholars) MA programmes?

Agree

it is quite normal to get shouted at.

Especially in a Big 4.

Most bosses just close one eye when they see their fellow colleagues verbal abuse the junior lawyers.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Agree

it is quite normal to get shouted at.

Especially in a Big 4.

Most bosses just close one eye when they see their fellow colleagues verbal abuse the junior lawyers.

What happens if the junior fights / shouts back?

pls refer to samuel seow's videos for reference lol

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Agree

it is quite normal to get shouted at.

Especially in a Big 4.

Most bosses just close one eye when they see their fellow colleagues verbal abuse the junior lawyers.

Big 4 assoc here. Had my fair share of scoldings but I don't think there's anything wrong with it either.

There's a line to be drawn between "verbal abuse" and scoldings. If you mess up as an associate, this has consequences which oftentime fall on the partners. As an associate you are ultimately not the one who is responsible for messups - it's your partners and their reputations which suffer.

A scolding when you make a mistake seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as it is confined to your mistake and helps you learn. When it goes into abuse territory, then it's definitely not okay .

That being said, I know of a lot of personalities who are simply unsuited for the law firm (or tbh, any corporate culture) life.

Does anyone know what the interview process is like at the AGC?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Does anyone know what the interview process is like at the AGC?

Musical chairs all the way to the interview room. Greeted by a bunch of old fogeys, one or two will be the lead interviewer(s) while the rest zone out.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Big 4? How bad is the scolding? I know some places don't scold

Some teams have very bad scoldings, and some teams have totally no scolding. You'll find the full spectrum if you look around. It's about the character and personality of the people in your team, plus an understanding and commitment to professionalism at the workplace..

But it's not so one dimensional. There's a reason why senior lawyers lose their temper at junior lawyers, and it isn't always the senior's fault.

Plus, for the junior to learn, there has to be some appropriate teaching or feedback given by the senior + the junior's willingness and positive attitude to learn. Not everyone who says they are willing to learn / improve will deliver on that promise, and not every senior will have the temperament for teaching..

Originally Posted by Unregistered

That’s insane. Nobody deserves to be abused like that. One more reason to leave the industry or join an international firm instead.

Yes, scoldings are probably less/rare there but they'll find a reason to let you go after compiling a list of mess ups, behind your back of course. And when you're eventually pushed out, it'll be for some weird and cryptic allegation, which you try to defend but you miss the secret list. Of course, they won't outright and say you suck, out of Western conceptions of courtesy. Although, they have a way of saying things that you'll only realise 6 years later.

There are only two responses a firm can take - scold directly, or ruin indirectly. You choose. Would you rather be told you're being retarded so you can learn (the Asian response), or would you rather the firm think you're retarded but you don't know what you can do better (the non-Asian response)? In Japan, people got fired for being out of frame in Zoom, such unprofessional conduct. Finding a good partner is a unicorn, I have yet to find one and even if I did they're probably chock full of good associates.

Look the point is - abuse or not, junior associates are all useless. If they are not, the partner does not know what he's doing.

Internationals are doing badly in this economy. Any firm tied to the US/UK market is not doing well. Look at their zero/dismal retention rates, retrenchments and current pay cuts locally and the actual paycuts, furloughs, retrenchments in the UK/US. Of course if you get retrenched you should still negotiate and hope (in some cases) they take you back.

My two cents - It doesn't help that they have taken a relatively staggered response to the virus and they have a lack of unified governmental outlook under the Federal system, toeing the political Conservative-Democrat/Liberal divide. See IMF projections. In contrast, although it started in Wuhan, the Chinese response was tough and swift. Number of cases in US / UK are high. This means contamination and a further outbreak is a further risk. When it breaks out again, cost cutting across all offices.

It'd be quite precarious right now. My two cents - look at their areas of practice and clientele and come to your own conclusions. Are you also overpaid for the work that you do? That adds a layer of unjustifiability to the equation. You are either next to go, or on your way out, or maybe they tried to get you to go but you grovelled. Or you started a mentoring site. Many possibilities, same outcome - companies need to be leaner.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Big 4 assoc here. Had my fair share of scoldings but I don't think there's anything wrong with it either.

There's a line to be drawn between "verbal abuse" and scoldings. If you mess up as an associate, this has consequences which oftentime fall on the partners. As an associate you are ultimately not the one who is responsible for messups - it's your partners and their reputations which suffer.

A scolding when you make a mistake seems perfectly reasonable to me so long as it is confined to your mistake and helps you learn. When it goes into abuse territory, then it's definitely not okay .

That being said, I know of a lot of personalities who are simply unsuited for the law firm (or tbh, any corporate culture) life.

Is the line crossed if the scolding is not confined to work? Many scoldings are not so confined. My take - we're all replaceable and they don't care