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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2010, 10:14 AM
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I agree with Pespective's comment that the gap between the scholars and non-scholars is narrowing. I used to work in the civil service and I have seen non-scholars being promoted almost as fast, or in some situations, as fast, as the scholars. I would say the gap is between the AO and the rest including the scholars.

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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2010, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
This is indeed a very interesting thread.



- It is also important to note that you are civil servants, supposedly working for the good for the people of Singapore. There is a certain amount of altriuism to be expected. Just like how we expect politicians to make sacrifices for the larger good, I think it is only fair that we expect civil servants to at least be interested in service to the country, and be motivated not just by salary alone. There must be other forms of satisfaction derived. I know this is grey area, and I agree the general work ethic in Singapore doesn't promote this "selflessness." I also recognise that many will say politicians are paid very well so why should we talk about selflessness etc. But that said, I do believe that many of the politicians would be earning a lot more in the private sector if they went back. Even if they aren't nice or likeable people, people you jsut want to smack and slap, they are indeed incredibly smart and capable. If they had stayed in the industries they were head-hunted by the PAP from, they would certainly be rolling in the dough! Anyway, that's an entirely different discussion.
agree with most of your points, although I don't totally buy theory of politicians being paid higher if they left the civil service. Just a few other points:
- the argument of 'selflessness', 'altruism' does not hold any more. Ever since our ministers start collecting million dollar packages for questionable performances, it is difficult to ask everyone in the civil service to take a lower package while the leaders do otherwise.
- you think someone like WKS or even MBT is worth a lot in the private sector? If you are talking about the surgeons, bankers, lawyers, maybe I buy it. But not all of them are necessarily worth a lot in the private sector. I would even venture to say that they have to take huge pay cut if they leave the government service.

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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2010, 04:31 PM
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agree with most of your points, although I don't totally buy theory of politicians being paid higher if they left the civil service. Just a few other points:
- the argument of 'selflessness', 'altruism' does not hold any more. Ever since our ministers start collecting million dollar packages for questionable performances, it is difficult to ask everyone in the civil service to take a lower package while the leaders do otherwise.
- you think someone like WKS or even MBT is worth a lot in the private sector? If you are talking about the surgeons, bankers, lawyers, maybe I buy it. But not all of them are necessarily worth a lot in the private sector. I would even venture to say that they have to take huge pay cut if they leave the government service.
Yeah, I know the civil service is evolving. And to be honest, I'm saddened that it's no longer seen as a calling, or something that's bigger than oneself. It's largely transactional.

I personally believe it's an unfortunate outcome of the import of corporate sector "best practices" to make the civil service more efficient. For the most part, these best practices do indeed improve productivity and efficiency. But the downside is this passion for compensation among employees, which I think is bad for the public sector. I mean you can't provide some public goods well like defence, education and health if you apply a strictly business HR approach. The attrition rate within these ministries is quite high, and no amount of $ will fix it.

I said most politicians would do well outside, not all. I know MBT was a government scholar who headed SBS when he was in his 30s. Who's to say he wouldnt have become SMRT's head, earning a million and a quarter a year? As for WKS, he's old guard, suppose things were different then.

Anyway, I see your point, but this debate will go on forever, which isn't the purpose of this thread.

I think my larger point is salary is important, but I think there's more to life, and not just outside work, but in work too. You need to find satisfaction in other things. And I'd like to think that for civil servants, satisfaction comes from helping make your fellow citizen's life better and more comfortable, regardless in what area, directly or indirectly.

But of course, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Just hoping to provide a balance here.

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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2010, 09:05 PM
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Poly lecturers can moonlight and teach at SIM University to earn extra income. Some make use of the free time (lots of it) to start sideline businesses.
On the contrary, not much free time. These days, especially with a particular poly in the east, the trend is to give plenty of continual assessment to the students. Which means, plenty of marking.

On top of it, the poly expects lecturers to haul up under-performing students and even to call up their parents.


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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
This is indeed a very interesting thread.

I only worked for 7 months in the civil service, which was my first job upon graduation. Thereafter, I joined a university, doing somethign I really like. My job requires me to remain in close contact with the civil service, though.

My pay took a hit, and admittedly, in general, I am significantly behind my peers who stayed on in the civil service, their first and only job. But, taking a step back, I'm still happy, and my life is still comfortable. Yes, I do get envious hearing the raw salary figures, but you gotta see things from different perspectives.

Also, I've come to realise, you just need a good financial strategy to be OK financially!

Several comments/observations.


- The civil service is Singapore's largest employer. Because it's such a big organisaiton, similar to having many industries under one roof, you can't take the career paths of individuals as the benchmark. In many cases, comparing 2 civil servants will be like comparing apples and oranges. In that sense, this original purpose of this thread, to get a "feel" of civil service pay scales for the sake of comparison is impossible to achieve. This is especially so as many of those who have kindly given precise salary figures did not state their appointment or ministry.

- To the question of whether you're being underpaid, I believe that the civil service pays a fair wage for each job vacancy. What may make you think otherwise is the speicifc work environment. Perhaps you have a lousy boss who rides you too hard? Maybe your boss is making you do more than you're really supposed to do? Or maybe the job is simply a poor job fit for you. In other words, it's more because of people issues that you feel underpaid, not structural ones where the organisation is intentionally underpaying you.

- It is also important to note that you are civil servants, supposedly working for the good for the people of Singapore. There is a certain amount of altriuism to be expected. Just like how we expect politicians to make sacrifices for the larger good, I think it is only fair that we expect civil servants to at least be interested in service to the country, and be motivated not just by salary alone. There must be other forms of satisfaction derived. I know this is grey area, and I agree the general work ethic in Singapore doesn't promote this "selflessness." I also recognise that many will say politicians are paid very well so why should we talk about selflessness etc. But that said, I do believe that many of the politicians would be earning a lot more in the private sector if they went back. Even if they aren't nice or likeable people, people you jsut want to smack and slap, they are indeed incredibly smart and capable. If they had stayed in the industries they were head-hunted by the PAP from, they would certainly be rolling in the dough! Anyway, that's an entirely different discussion.

- What you do (your job) is as important as how much you get paid. If you value the latter over the former, there is a good chance that by your 40s, you'll be incredibly cynical and disillusioned because your salary will never be enough (in your opinion).

- Also, as someone pointed out, the civil service treats its employees in a civil manner. There is a large amount of stability in your job if you do what's expected of you (you don't even need to excel). THe private sector, however, isn't as stable in general. Although you might earn a lot more, there's also a greater risk that you may lose your job, even if you were the hardest worker on the block. THis is something you should factor in. Don't just look at the short-term. Consider the longer term. Some people value this stability, and are willing to earn less for it.

- On this topic, think about work-life balance too. This is especially important when switching between industries, or private and public sectors. There's a cost for everything gained! I believe there's no such thing as a free lunch. If you get fantastic pay, there must be a cost. Also, having lots of money is good, but as the chinese saying goes, "how much rice can you eat?" A lot of us already earn more than the median monthly income of Singaporeans. Maybe it's time to adjust your expectations. It's the classic chasing the 5Cs phenomenon. Find something else that will satisfy you, and help you find the meaning of life (cheesy as it may sound, it is very important!).

- As with all industries, there's an element of luck in determining your salary or promotion. Sometimes, this element of luck can be a lot larger than you might think! After all, you're working in an environment staffed by people, not robots, where judgements and decisions will be unavoidably subjective. Because of this, it is impossible to calculate precisely how well you will do, or how fast you may move up. Many promotions happen because you happen to be at the right place at the right time. Or you happen to possess an urgently needed set of skills. Call it destiny or good karma. There's a certain amount of plotting, scheming and engineering that can be done, but you can never chart your career progression as if it's a science.

- Increasingly, the scholar-farmer divide is narrowing. Especially for those who have just joined the civil service. I know this is very much the case in MINDEF. If you're in your late 30s or 40s, maybe you'll see it less. But for younger civil servants, opportunities abound, even if you're not a scholar! Don't allow people to convince you otherwise. Yes, scholars will be taken care of, but only because the govt has spent so much money on them. That said, many are leaving too! There's also the grudging recognition that a brilliant 18 year old doesn't necessarily make a brilliant 28 year old, or a 38 year old

- Finally, and I suppose this is what I think is the most important, is get a financial plan. Either read up and make your own, or employ a reliable financial advisor. At the end of the day, your biggest asset is time, so the sooner you have a disciplined plan, the more your money can grow. And with a good plan, you can still race ahead of your peers even if your pay is below theirs. Also, if you have specific goals, you can try to work towards them. And even if your financial burdens are incredibly heavy, with early planning, you can still have a very comfortable life. Few realise how wonderful time can be as a monetary multiplier! I know of so many people who drew high salaries but blew it away because they didn't have a good financial plan. This is also tied in with work-life balance. If you work in a stressful job, there's a higher chance you'll spend money on unnecessary things which don't add any value to your financial portfolio because you think "you deserve treating yourself." Ironically, it's because you want to expand your financial portfolio that you seek a high paying job!
Thanks for this post.
This is wisdom and worth re-reading again.
Cheers
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 22-07-2010, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by starrxu View Post
I have a friend in oil & gas, marine industry. Earning big bucks. Few years ago, he is already earning $6k. It is your call. Try already then you will know.
Hi there, may I know which company your friends is working at, what aspect of the job is he in, and how long has he been working in that company?

Many thanks!
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 25-07-2010, 05:17 PM
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hi,

I'm 31 with a PhD in engineerin and make 3.6k per month working for a stat board.
Should I wish for more?
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 26-07-2010, 12:46 PM
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hi,

I'm 31 with a PhD in engineerin and make 3.6k per month working for a stat board.
Should I wish for more?
No don't wish for too much. Be contented with what u have. Life is too short to keep thinking about money.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 26-07-2010, 01:33 PM
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hi,

I'm 31 with a PhD in engineerin and make 3.6k per month working for a stat board.
Should I wish for more?
From what I understand, the Civil Service pays for academic achievements based on relevance. If you manage to find a position in another stat board / ministry asking for post-grad qualifications (could be in engineering or not), then yes, your salary would increase substantially.

But if your current position doesn't require a PhD, then chances are you're on the same progression rate as other graduates who have no PhDs. It's all down to performance, and to a large extent, how well your bosses like you (huh).

I've heard of several graduates who attained Masters while working in the Civil Service then resigned because it simply didn't help them get promoted (one of the reasons is also that the Civil Service doesn't recognize your Masters if you attain it part-time while working inside the Civil Service).
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 26-07-2010, 03:55 PM
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hi,

I'm 31 with a PhD in engineerin and make 3.6k per month working for a stat board.
Should I wish for more?
I'm guessing that you have 3 years or less of working experience (since you would probably be at least 28 years old after getting your PhD) so 3.6k is reasonable.
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