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  #1861 (permalink)  
Old 21-11-2017, 02:26 PM
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Fee structure duh. I thought the answer would've been blindingly obvious.

IB charges fees on a combination of retainer and success fees, normally expressed as a % of the deal value.

Lawyers overwhelmingly charge on the billable hour. There's only so much you can bill because there's only so many hours you can work in a day.

You're comparing apples and oranges.
This isn't entirely true as well. Even though IB charges fees as a % of deal value, they are still significantly lower across Asia (especially SG) vs US/EU. Just take a look at the annual report of any investment bank that breaks out their IB revenue. Asia tends to have one of the strongest growths but are nowhere close to what you see in the US/EU

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Based on your logic, investment bankers and sales & traders should be getting depressed wages as well. They too fall into the tertiary services industry and face the same environmental constraints that you mentioned.

So why is it that they are earning New York benchmarked salaries (85k USD equivalent == 120k SGD, roughly 10k SGD per month base) in the lacklustre Asian market? What is the structural differential between banking and law that is prevalent here?
Investment bankers in Asia get paid similar BASE salaries to their counterparts in the US/EU. However, on the BONUS component (which you'll find constitutes 50% or even more of total comp), they get paid significantly less. Bonuses are tied to deal flow: if you don't bring in/transact deals, there's a smaller bonus pool to get paid from

Reason for the similar BASE salaries is because you still need to attract top tier talent to work in an ibank. The type of work you do in Asia is similar to what you would do in the US/EU (and not always less complex), and would require long hours. If you do not offer those salaries, no one would be willing to pull all-nighters for you. Probably apt to also point out that although 10k SGD per month sounds like a lot, on a per-hour basis you're getting paid less than an average fresh grad raking in 4k SGD per month

Another thing that no one seems to have pointed out is that the environment for investment bankers is getting worse as well - it's not just restricted to law. Given that the wallet size (or potential deals you can bring in) in Asia are shrinking, a lot of ibanks have been downsizing (cutting teams); this can be seen in both SG & HK. Whilst bankers used to get housing allowances (something like 25k HKD per month for associates in HK) on top of their base salary & bonuses, this has been cut drastically or removed altogether.

Like the Big 4 local firms, banks here face increased competition from other foreign banks as well (predominantly SOE Chinese banks) that can undercut fees to gain market share. The amount that they undercut by is staggering (below cost at times), which means banks can ill afford to pay decent bonuses at all to local bankers.

Bottom line: it's tough everywhere you go, regardless of whatever profession you're in.

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  #1862 (permalink)  
Old 21-11-2017, 02:31 PM
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Can confirm on your point on counsel dynamics in M&A. I work in an international bank advising on M&A and Big 4(D&N, WongP, R&T, A&G) Lawyers are ONLY retained as local counsel on deals, and typically only when either the sell or buy side is HQed in Singapore. In my time here I have not seen any of the local Big 4 being retained as international lead counsel on any significant cross border deals. There might be one or two small sub-200mn deals where there is an exception but by and large my bosses and our clients prefer the Freshfields, A&O or linklaters guys to take point on the most complicated transaction negotiations.

With this by no means am I implying that Big 4 lawyers are subpar, but the trend is perhaps more a reflection of the truly international capabilities and slick navigation of complex issues that commonly arise in cross border transactions that the Magic Circle offer a lot more confidence in. In fact, most of the MC firms frequently send their antitrust and regulatory control teams down to our office to train our bankers on regional developments and key authorities (esp with the uncertainty of Mofcom). I remember always being impressed (and still am) by how they seemingly effortlessly have a grip of the broader global regulatory environment yet still wielding an in depth understanding of technicalities at the country level.
This. If you're going to transact a large cross-border M&A, you'd want to make sure your legal counsel has a firm understanding of local antitrust laws/regulations etc.

Big 4 lawyers can be very impressive, but they are only impressive with regard to Singapore law. They simply do not have the reach of international law firms (nor the experience), but I believe most do not wish to operate as such either (they tend to partner with local firms in other jurisdictions (e.g. Indo, Myanmar, Malaysia etc).

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  #1863 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2017, 09:19 AM
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s://.legalcheek.com/2017/11/revealed-law-firms-average-arrive-and-leave-the-office-times-2017-18/

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  #1864 (permalink)  
Old 25-11-2017, 01:51 AM
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anybody did not get retained after call this year?

any advice?
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  #1865 (permalink)  
Old 26-11-2017, 01:05 AM
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anyone had experience or know things about
suss jd course? it cost $160,000 plus
How long can I take to earn back this amount being a lawyer?
how much does a lawyer earn?

any comment about smu Jd course as well? how their student graduates prospects?
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  #1866 (permalink)  
Old 26-11-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
anyone had experience or know things about
suss jd course? it cost $160,000 plus
How long can I take to earn back this amount being a lawyer?
how much does a lawyer earn?

any comment about smu Jd course as well? how their student graduates prospects?
SUSS course is meant for people who will go into community, family and criminal law. You cannot go in with the mindset that you will become a corporate lawyer. With this in mind, you can expect a starting salary of about 3.5-4K and a few hundreds in increments per year


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  #1867 (permalink)  
Old 26-11-2017, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
anyone had experience or know things about
suss jd course? it cost $160,000 plus
How long can I take to earn back this amount being a lawyer?
how much does a lawyer earn?

any comment about smu Jd course as well? how their student graduates prospects?
it takes 7 yrs to recoup suss jd tuition fees for Singaporeans. singaporeans jd total tuiton fees is just 38.6k. but foreigner is 160k.

say you are a 25 yr old paralegal earning 2.2k per mth with 3 mth bonus, ie 33k per annum.
you quit and embarked on full time jd for 4 yrs, incurring 38.6k tuition fee.
you would have lost income of 5*33k = 165k over 5 yrs (4 yrs law course + ~1yr to be admitted to bar, depending on supply of fresh grad then, training contract may not come with allowance)
so total loss is ~210k sgd (165k + 38K tuition)

at age 30, once you admitted to the bar, and earns a respectable 4.5k as a family or criminal lawyer.
so net gain is 4.5k - 2.2k (ur pay if you stayed as paralegal) = 2.3k per mth
you need around 90mths or 7 years to break even to cover that 210k loss.

at sgd 160k it is not worth it, but at sgd 38k tuition it is.

smu jd is too pricey.
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  #1868 (permalink)  
Old 26-11-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
it takes 7 yrs to recoup suss jd tuition fees for Singaporeans. singaporeans jd total tuiton fees is just 38.6k. but foreigner is 160k.

say you are a 25 yr old paralegal earning 2.2k per mth with 3 mth bonus, ie 33k per annum.
you quit and embarked on full time jd for 4 yrs, incurring 38.6k tuition fee.
you would have lost income of 5*33k = 165k over 5 yrs (4 yrs law course + ~1yr to be admitted to bar, depending on supply of fresh grad then, training contract may not come with allowance)
so total loss is ~210k sgd (165k + 38K tuition)

at age 30, once you admitted to the bar, and earns a respectable 4.5k as a family or criminal lawyer.
so net gain is 4.5k - 2.2k (ur pay if you stayed as paralegal) = 2.3k per mth
you need around 90mths or 7 years to break even to cover that 210k loss.

at sgd 160k it is not worth it, but at sgd 38k tuition it is.

smu jd is too pricey.
even tho this is not applicable to me, i like your analysis haha.. sounds sound.
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  #1869 (permalink)  
Old 26-11-2017, 08:52 PM
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SUSS course is meant for people who will go into community, family and criminal law. You cannot go in with the mindset that you will become a corporate lawyer. With this in mind, you can expect a starting salary of about 3.5-4K and a few hundreds in increments per year
HOW REALISTIC can I make back this amount?

so If I to earn lots of money fast, I should do smu jd course?

they are more into business law right? but $71 thousands how long I need earn back?
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  #1870 (permalink)  
Old 26-11-2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
it takes 7 yrs to recoup suss jd tuition fees for Singaporeans. singaporeans jd total tuiton fees is just 38.6k. but foreigner is 160k.

say you are a 25 yr old paralegal earning 2.2k per mth with 3 mth bonus, ie 33k per annum.
you quit and embarked on full time jd for 4 yrs, incurring 38.6k tuition fee.
you would have lost income of 5*33k = 165k over 5 yrs (4 yrs law course + ~1yr to be admitted to bar, depending on supply of fresh grad then, training contract may not come with allowance)
so total loss is ~210k sgd (165k + 38K tuition)

at age 30, once you admitted to the bar, and earns a respectable 4.5k as a family or criminal lawyer.
so net gain is 4.5k - 2.2k (ur pay if you stayed as paralegal) = 2.3k per mth
you need around 90mths or 7 years to break even to cover that 210k loss.

at sgd 160k it is not worth it, but at sgd 38k tuition it is.

smu jd is too pricey.
i checked, I received tuition grant before for my first degree so I have to pay full fare for SUSS jd.

I am close to 40s nowbut l earn quite littlee, So thought be lawyercan earn more money.
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