Lawyer Salary

why does R&T pay the lowest among the big4?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

To be honest i think its no big secret. There's no need to be so secretive.

WongP and A&G are Marina Bay area. Drew and R&T are at Raffles Place area.

There will always be a market for Big 4 firms.

They have a goodwill and reputation in the market. they are the firms that companies will turn to when they need to complete a mega merger or fight a bet-the-company lawsuit.

despite the downward pressure in fees, these firms will endure. sure they may shed a few non-performing partners and layoff a few associates, but they will survive.

it is the midsize firms that need to be very afraid

I don't 100% agree with your analysis.

It is true that the big 4 have much goodwill and strength in depth. There are not going to disappear in a short time but over the years they may downsize if they are caught in no man's land

I think law firms, like all other businesses need to know their strengths and niches. I see MNC and FIs prefering international firms for big deals over time. So firms like A&G and WongP corp side may see the need to rethink their practices. Coupled with the lack of substantial IPOs and funding raising in Singapore, the headwinds is strong.

Disputes is here to stay because of only Singapore firms can do litigation in Singapore. However unless the firm is bent on having an SC and a big team on the case, it is open for the mid sized and smaller firms to take disputes cases as well. MNCs tend to go for trusted names and reasonable fees rather than specific firms for lawyers. Drew is clearly the strong one in this but questionable whether disputes can feed the entire firm sufficiently if it gets too big.

I have to mention R&T which i think is diversifying risk by not emphasising too much on one practice area. They prefer to bank on their regional esp myanmar stuffs. Sound strategy but there is always risk with going 8nto a foreign developing place. R&T is stronger on the disputes side imo.

The mid sized firms fit in well if they know their markets well. Legal cost is important to many companies so as mentioned they are on par with big 4 in disputes in terms of competitiveness. There is no sure-win lawyer! Corp side deals they might not get the big deals (which are drying up anw) but serve the more cost conscious SMEs and Catalist companies and foreign companies who just need a reasonably compentent local counsel. There are some mid sized which are into niche practices. It really depends on how the practice is run and positioned in the market.

The less than 30 lawyers firms serves the smaller SMEs and do most of the personal law work... yes these firms are not so resourceful and sometimes the quality of legal service raise questions but surely i don't want to pay so much for a posh law firm to do my own conveyancing or advise me on employment contracts... these are the firms i will trust them to recover my debts and wind up my retail shop but fighting a bigger multi million dispute is a no no.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I don't 100% agree with your analysis.

It is true that the big 4 have much goodwill and strength in depth. There are not going to disappear in a short time but over the years they may downsize if they are caught in no man's land

I think law firms, like all other businesses need to know their strengths and niches. I see MNC and FIs prefering international firms for big deals over time. So firms like A&G and WongP corp side may see the need to rethink their practices. Coupled with the lack of substantial IPOs and funding raising in Singapore, the headwinds is strong.

Disputes is here to stay because of only Singapore firms can do litigation in Singapore. However unless the firm is bent on having an SC and a big team on the case, it is open for the mid sized and smaller firms to take disputes cases as well. MNCs tend to go for trusted names and reasonable fees rather than specific firms for lawyers. Drew is clearly the strong one in this but questionable whether disputes can feed the entire firm sufficiently if it gets too big.

I have to mention R&T which i think is diversifying risk by not emphasising too much on one practice area. They prefer to bank on their regional esp myanmar stuffs. Sound strategy but there is always risk with going 8nto a foreign developing place. R&T is stronger on the disputes side imo.

The mid sized firms fit in well if they know their markets well. Legal cost is important to many companies so as mentioned they are on par with big 4 in disputes in terms of competitiveness. There is no sure-win lawyer! Corp side deals they might not get the big deals (which are drying up anw) but serve the more cost conscious SMEs and Catalist companies and foreign companies who just need a reasonably compentent local counsel. There are some mid sized which are into niche practices. It really depends on how the practice is run and positioned in the market.

The less than 30 lawyers firms serves the smaller SMEs and do most of the personal law work... yes these firms are not so resourceful and sometimes the quality of legal service raise questions but surely i don't want to pay so much for a posh law firm to do my own conveyancing or advise me on employment contracts... these are the firms i will trust them to recover my debts and wind up my retail shop but fighting a bigger multi million dispute is a no no.

I concur. Corporate work is drying up for the Big 4, and it would be wise for fresh graduates to choose litigation as their starting area

Given the number of lawyers here, I would like to ask a question about the training contract applications in this period. I am an estimated second upper from a UK university, and I am rather concerned about my prospects at a Big 4 since I have yet to receive an email or a call for an interview. Can any lawyers please shed some light on the situation for TC applications at the Big 4? Have the majority of offers been given out? Some insight into the 2018 RLT/2019 TC intake at mid size firms would also be much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Given the number of lawyers here, I would like to ask a question about the training contract applications in this period. I am an estimated second upper from a UK university, and I am rather concerned about my prospects at a Big 4 since I have yet to receive an email or a call for an interview. Can any lawyers please shed some light on the situation for TC applications at the Big 4? Have the majority of offers been given out? Some insight into the 2018 RLT/2019 TC intake at mid size firms would also be much appreciated.

I am just a minion with no access high level recruitment decisions but just some general point having been through the process.

2.1 at a UK university is a good starting point though there is zero assurance that it helps you positively. Just one less hoop to jump in your applications.

Big 4 generally prefers former interns. You are disadvantaged if you haven't interned. Because of the choice they have they are entitled to scrutinise your transcript and achievements to look for their perfect fit. Hopefully you didn't do too badly in core law subjects. I understand even at interview stage you can easily have 3 person fighting for 1 TC spot.

The other thing is know the right people. That can be the easiest or toughest thing.

Understand that hiring numbers are dependent on the firm's prediction of business in 2019. I understand that even local graduates around 30% are struggling to find TCs in 2018.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I concur. Corporate work is drying up for the Big 4, and it would be wise for fresh graduates to choose litigation as their starting area

Agree with drying up of corporate work in Big4s, but disagree with choosing Liti as a matter of bread and butter considerations.

The fundamental problem is the shrinkage of the Singapore legal market. The solution is not to become a bigger fish within a shrinking pond, but to gain the mobility to escape the shrinking pond itself. Corporate, banking and capital markets practice areas confer the greatest degree of mobility, and if the Singapore legal market dies, you can always flee and join an international firm which doesn't suffer the same systemic one-market risks that the Big4s do.

Liti associates are the least mobile amongst all practice groups. It's the riskiest path of all.

Hey guys,

Really appreciative of the really constructive comments, especially those that got straight to the point. Since there has been a lot of talk on Big 4/MC pay grades, I'm wondering whether anybody has anything to share about payscales of a Small-Mid firm of approximately 20 people.

I understand that Small-Mid firms tend to vary, depending on their expertise.. However, just for a rough gauge:

(1) Is there a fairly accurate benchmark of how well/bad they pay for their newly qualified lawyers, 1PQE, 2PQE and so on?
(2) How about annual increments? Am I right to say that there will definitely be annual increments?

Personally, I'm still seeking a TC and have been tinkering with my options. Another option is to perhaps give banks and its legal/compliance teams a shot.

Anybody has any comments about such a route (banks) and whether it pays well in terms of fresh grad salary and annual increments?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey guys,

Really appreciative of the really constructive comments, especially those that got straight to the point. Since there has been a lot of talk on Big 4/MC pay grades, I'm wondering whether anybody has anything to share about payscales of a Small-Mid firm of approximately 20 people.

I understand that Small-Mid firms tend to vary, depending on their expertise.. However, just for a rough gauge:

(1) Is there a fairly accurate benchmark of how well/bad they pay for their newly qualified lawyers, 1PQE, 2PQE and so on?
(2) How about annual increments? Am I right to say that there will definitely be annual increments?

Personally, I'm still seeking a TC and have been tinkering with my options. Another option is to perhaps give banks and its legal/compliance teams a shot.

Anybody has any comments about such a route (banks) and whether it pays well in terms of fresh grad salary and annual increments?

Beyond the Big4 space, you won't find a unified scale of salaries. Some of the mid tier firms pay significantly more than others (some even pay more than the Big4). This would range between $4,000 and $5,800 in local outfits? I'm discounting international firms as you don't seem to be looking within that space. The smaller firms are a black hole I'm afraid. Salaries start as low as $3k. Some have 5.5 day weeks for 3.5k.

May I offer you some advice? Don't waste your time agonizing over your chances and worrying about things that don't improve your prospects. Go out and make things happen. Find events that lawyers attend and register for them. SILE seminars are almost exclusively attended by lawyers, and it a great place for students to come and meet lawyers. If I see a student who's not bound by CPD requirements coming down as a matter of interest, and he/she makes the effort to start chatting and networking, I would be very impressed. Some of the more senior registrants are partners with hiring power, so those people would be very worth approaching.

Of course you've got to be subtle. Don't go there looking all desperate and beg for a job. Invest your time in slowly building these connections up. I'm sorry that times are so hard for you guys now, but you've gotta be strong and rise up to the challenge.

All the best!

Wonderful advice

[tea]

Hello! I'm a Y1 Law student at SMU and an avid follower of this thread. I've really valued all the advice given by school seniors and working professionals so far and would like to submit my own dilemma for direction and enlightenment.

Some background: I'm a person with no specific interests in life, and I draw a blank whenever someone asks me what I want to do/be in the future. I'm in Law because
- I never expected to get in and was too excited to think twice when I did
- I've always enjoyed reading and fared better with words (as opposed to numbers)
- I wanted financial security, and a straightforward career path which risked no further indecision
- I was deliberating between NUS & SMU, so this gave me a perfect reason to choose SMU (I didn't apply for NUS Law).

After studying Law for about half a semester however, I came to realise that this degree/career may not really be the one for me. Here's another bulleted list detailing why:
- There's basically no use of creativity (at least not in the life-changing ways I would like) due to statutes/stare decisis
- Readings are boring and endless, apart from some especially messed up criminal cases
- I feel restless arguing over petty things like a particular word in the statute
- I want to play in my last few years of education, not suffer
- There's a glut of lawyers I'm not sure I can beat
- ...which raises the issue of (decreasing) salary
- I want to travel a lot in my future job, but the legal profession seems to be very local- and desk-bound

But of course, where there are pros, there are cons (to transferring):
- Complications with the Tuition Grant
- ...which will force me to fit 4 years' work into 3.5 or less
- Starting one semester late, meaning no friends/hall/basic knowledge
- I'm planning to take Business, but I'm terrified of the mathematical aspect of it
- SMU's new School of Law building AND Law library will be opening next sem!!! It'd be a waste if I leave right before I get to enjoy these new facilities
- I appreciate SMU's defining programmes e.g. their career training workshops, compulsory community service/internships & high number of overseas learning opportunities (86% of their students go overseas compared to NTU/NUS' 70+%, if I'm not wrong) but have not experienced all of them yet (of course I can do the same in NUS, but competition seems tougher + internships/community service being optional may cause me to slack off instead)

Anyway, for those of you who couldn't be bothered to read everything, I hope you can nonetheless provide answers to the following questions:
1. I've read articles that posit that the glut will not adversely impact the chances of local law graduates, just foreign ones (from less renowned schools) - to what extent is this true?
2. Can the law degree really open many doors? The way I see it, companies will be better off hiring actual business graduates than law ones due to their education and experience in that area.
3. Are law firms really biased against SMU graduates? What explains our slight edge in the Graduate Employment Survey, then? (I'm just curious!)

Thanks in advance everyone!