simple la...

Just push everything to the engineer to answer for the tool Also not your problem,

boss unhappy also no use. Not your fault also. PM need to know how to tai chi otherwise

how to be PM.

Not sure if this applies to all division. Most project-based new hires now are either direct ST contract or outsourced contract unless it's roles like division admin or actual manager role. So far only division admins and M3 managers and above usually come in as perm.

For project-based engineer roles to be converted is really a wayang show or the engineer is really amazing in his work.

You know why they do this?
It's to
1. Maintain power. Don't like you. Just don't renew you. Compared to if you are perm, can't fire without cause. So can only give bad performance to affect bonus. But then destroy team morale. So that's why they outsource.
2. To reduce cost. I heard each division very expensive. Cause need to justify finance etc. So every quarter the management perm kpi cannot meet. Cause financial need to show investor its making money... So that's why outsource. Those cost become soe thing else... Very funny right.
3. No project. The fact that ST never innovate or compete globally and have been "iron rice bowl" under all this management for years. Made this company very backward. And also hard to attract talent cause current company also no talent. So end up alot of perm staff with high pay but no skills. No experience. Just ******** talk. Anything just hire outsource to do the work for them. Then promote perm.. Terminate outsource...
4. The management who are already perm have nothing to lose. They have no reason to offer perm also at the expense of their bonus and kpi.

Its the same analogy as why company would rather hire foreign worker cause cheaper. Foreign worker work harder for lower pay. Singaporean want more pay and do less.

Its only cause gahmen step in and say your ratio need to be 3 Singaporean to 1 foreigner. That's why alot of company don't do that.

But don't have law or policy that says your company must be 70% perm and 10% outsource...

So it end up with 90% outsource and 10% perm.
This problem is so prevalent that I even overhead some guys complaining "how to manage risk and assurance of project if everything is outsourced?"

Blame this on the senior management.
Senior management don't care as long as their wallet and position is secure.
Never mind this outsource practise will only leak talent.

Actually if I'm not wrong senior management alrwady said 3 years more outsource must be converted to in house contract. I dunno what la.

But all they do is just rename outsource to insource.
Nothing was changed. Just like how their reorganisation and restructuring is just renaming of legal name. Nothing is changed. Office same. People in power same. Location same. Business nature same.

Different is everyone know confuse what is called what.
Name card change. Email title changed. Even customer also confused Electronics still exists or not.
Sometimes have to tell the electronics hub still exists. It's still called electronics hub. But don't have ST Electronics anymore legally.

Not 90% la.
More like 75%.

In my division of 100 people, maybe like 25 is perm.
1 M4
2 M3
5 M2
15 M1
3 E6

The rest is mostly E5 and E6 outsource with no chance of promotion of conversion.
Every year is see people come and go. Usually people leave at year 4 when they realised their contract will only keep renewed. And the perm won't leave. Like really. They either love the place so much. Or they don't have place to leave. Like don't see any perm leave in the past 10 years here. Only see they keep getting promoted higher and higher.

No. I'm one of the perm E6 and no I also don't have chance to promote cause too many M1 in my division.

Alot of people assume work in big company is iron rice bowl cause job security.

if you have 1 division of 100 people.
Lets assume all get equal fresh grad starting pay 5k.

Thats 500k per month cost.
To sustain just for 2 years contract, that's 12 million.

If you just start a division right now with 100 fresh grad (not even the whole cohort of comp science), u already need 12 million of investment upfront just to ensure their job for 2 years.

Problem is nowadays fresh grad are too expensive.
And project cost are not expensive enough.

If i tell u 1 project is 1 million dollars, u already feel wah so expensive.
Just to sustain 100 fresh grad in 1 division all aimless walking around impostor syndrome u need 12 of this 1 million projects...

Use brain la.
Fresh grad is too expensive.
We haven't even count those high paid management..

CEO rather eat the 12 million as his bonus than setup a division of 100 fresh grads.

Actually, whether engineers really learn a great deal in the first few years in ST does not hide the fact that when engineers leave at year 4 and 5, it is a big set back because not only these engineers are at the point when they are experienced enough to carry their projects or tasks through without much supervision but they are also senior enough to lead junior engineers.

But as you pointed out, ST has too many junior to middle management that many capable engineers lost faith in the system and simply left for other better prospects. New engineers have no one to follow because the M1s and above will likely have forgotten how to do the things which they might have conveniently pushed down previously.

I still remember before the change in the remuneration package, my job title included my specialization, which I think is important to this day because it reflected the niche or specialization of the person or engineer. After the change, my title was simply "engineer" and lumped together with the rest to fight for promotion.

Yes, I was an outsourced staff.

Actually ST electronics strategy is to keep the management levels as permanent. They can continue to manage and lead projects. While keeping the workers below as temp ones
Because workers come and go anyway. The only way you can be considered perm in ST is to be promoted to at least a manager level from your individual contributor level.

This is the same strategy with Accenture's division which deals with govt projects. But they are abit better, they do promote people from the bottom up. But just very rarely. Bottom people are hired directly as perm positions and their career growth is accounted for. Unlike ST you chiong so many years also never convert to perm, much less career progression.

The need for management staff as permanent is understandable due to the need for stability in the company. However, like you said, put in sweat and tears for many years without any knowledge of KPI or performance not only hit morales, but also a deal breaker for many.

The number of years I was there, there was never a performance appraisal or KPI indicator discussion. Year and year do the same things, if propose something, management reject. If don't do anything, management feels never contribute enough. Truth is many outsourced staff have no idea what were their KPIs and which areas of work / character they have excelled in or need improvement / changes.

Before I left I sat down for a talk with my supervisor and he blabbered a lot of things which are of no help in any way. No help because I asked how I can further develop my skills and specialisation. What I was told was I can try to request to be PM or go into other product streams, which none was my niche. When I finally tendered, he had totally forgotten our discussion when I tried to bring back the topic. I'm not sure how many people faced similar issues as me. For someone who really want to contribute, that was a real slap in the face.

Outsource (STE Staff)
 

Had come across that some staff worked like 10 to 15 years still being label as Outsource Staff. The funny part is that during those D&D, they will announce long service award employees.:mad:

Guess it is very difficult to attract talents since all job would be place as Outsource payroll. This could be a good reason to use if wanted to leave the organisation.

Mnc jiu ish mnc. You must have MBA otherwise cannot answer like so expert pm de.

STEE new scheme software role, 2nd lower SUTD, $4.5k

even higher than some uni grad seniors that have been with company for more than 5 years

Erm should say about same pay as those E5 in ST coy for ard 5 years. Just that the new grad join loses the share scheme and aws. Let's welcome the new grad who will be joining ST.

I'm that poster from SUTD $4.5k.

Well the starting pay is on the high side but bonuses is almost kosong. A lot of engineers and SWE are jumping ship.

If you add "looking for permanent role" in your resume and upload it to job sites, there will at least be 1 call every 2-3 days.

That's the problem with ST. They like to act like they care for outsource staff in front of everyone but when it comes to actual compensation and appreciation, there's almost nothing.

How come fresh grad is getting paid senior pay?
Erm. Even without bonus. Say its the old scheme. You are still paid 4.1k which is way more than the HR guidance for fresh grad 3.5k to 3.8k.

And during covid year when senior pay is freeze.
Fresh grad being offered senior pay and not expected to produce senior work?

This doesn't sit well with me.

See a fresh grad.
Tekan a fresh grad.

Yes. My junior fresh grad 3 years ago was 3.5k. Increment to 3605 first year.
Then second year 3713 but due to new pay scheme was offered 4k.

He calculated that the system seem to have cheated him a few hundred.

Now I told him that fresh grad joining now 4.5k.

He is absolutely pissed off. And said something "wtf I have 3 years exp and I'm still paid lower than fresh grad." he said he won't help or guide fresh grad since they are paid higher than him
.

I agree with him. And I told him... I'm 5 years my starting pay was 3.3k that's even worst.
Fresh grad is so entitled now adays.

Fresh grads entitled? More like your company values fresh grads more than experienced people like yourself. Blame your company, not the fresh grads.

If you not happy with the pay, jolly well go apply elsewhere and see if you can get a higher pay. If not, pls diam and stop all your complaints. Dont make a fool out of yourself.

Thanx a lot I am the question asker.

1. Yes, we have a defined PDP. The PDP is an old set up based on the existing ISO9001. It was designed by a former Project manager also from another MNC when he was retrenched from there but deliverables are flexible after he left and now not all follow it. Something I really want to change. Do you have any recommendations? There is a fixed MSA for all the customers and there is a clause that covers compensation. But the MSA is reviewed only customer to customer and it is signed with customer during concept stage.

2. There is a tooling stage buy off which the stakeholders have to sign off. This is during after customer accept the concept. The stakeholders include engineering.

3. For this one I am very impressed with you. I went to check and found engineering has budget from another project that have leftover budget after their other tooling was accepted in their other still in force project. So the engineering team still has access to that other budget. But this is something I really never thought of because they submitted using the tool request of my project with the other project code using its leftover money and got approval. I already escalated this and the boss was also quite impressed with your tips and told the engineering not to do it again. Procurement also was shock because they didn't know. The other project's manager was also shock but has to include this extra expenditure into their KPI.

Sees like your company is in a mess more than fresh grads are entitled.

This company is tone deaf.

Recent covid-19 cases involved ST engineers..

They word it as... One outsource person and two of our colleagues...
Apparently if you are perm staff you are qualified to be called colleagues....

If you are outsource, you're classified as outsource person or "outsource labour"..

Shows the way this company treat his staff. Cause sure. The outsource staff is a labour. But the perm staff is a colleague.

Disgusting.

During their president's address day, the perm staff can blatantly ask all the outsourced staff to do their work while they go listen to some boring talk. After they come back the work is miraculously done so they can still go home on time.

Or if the company is giving out some things to "all their staff", when the delivery came, the outsourced admin realise that there's only enough for slightly less than a third of the strength because "all the staff" means perm staff. They might as well house all the outsourced staff in separate offices.

They somehow don't see that all these little things affect morale.

Should join SME la. Everyone is perm in SME.
But SME no promotion. No career growth.
And all perm staff can be Terminated in SME as and when the company see fit..

So yep

All kpkb fresh grad pay hire. Quit and go study again, be fresh grad again la.
If every fresh grad come in must take the same pay as you last time "3.3k", "3.5k" then country Hong gan liao loh.
Siao eh last time Wanton Mee 10cents only eh.
Really jiak ba bo sai pang.

Salary should be pegged to the jobscope and responsibilities according to market rate. The way ST sets its wage sounds very weird.

It is the same for perm software engineers. All my colleagues left, the attrition rate is extremely high for the managers as well. I have no outsourced colleagues to rely on too.

Fresh grad can command high pay.
No prob.

Just make sure can deliver the product.
No more excuses of "he is just a fresh grad"

That excuse of "he is fresh.. no exp" doesn't apply anymore.
Since pay so high. Must be put to work immediately.

Overtime and lots of **** for them. HAHAHAHAA

Lol times are different now. Your lousy degree years back pales in comparison to the degree they have now. Buay song ah? Quit la. So dua kang. If you so good then go exit and find elsewhere la. If not just diam diam heads down and admit fresh grads better than you.

Bingo. You really nailed it.

I'm glad I was able to help in some ways. As for the part that you wanted to change something that's already inculcated as a company culture, I can only wish you the best. Enforcement need to come with support from management.

Thanks for the compliment. But I am only a diploma holder.

Outsource Staff is consider as 3rd Class Employees
 

that's not true, perm staff are treated like sh1t too. SWE getting $10-$50 increments in the first 2 years, fk my life.

So what? Under the new scheme you all got super high starting pay compared to someone who joined 3-4 years before you under the same role.

Perm staff 18 annual leave
Outsource 14 annual leave

Impossible la.. how can diploma holder know all thes?

Or you master degree holder trying to pretend to be diploma?

In ST diploma can only be technician.

why complain so much when you guys know it's an out source position and yet accept it? No one force you to accept the out source position by ST.

Want accept it then don't complain. If not then apply for a perm ST position.

I'm in the company for more than 5 years and was shocked that the fresh hires in my project is paid more than me. Is there any ways to negotiate for higher pay with HR?

send letter, if you have the skill and the boss need you, they will counter offer.

If not, then can find a new job with whatever pay you want, if your current skillset deserve it.

if with this 5 yr experience, you learn nothing and have no where to go. then can just suck thumb

Can. post your employee ID here and the HR will contact you shortly with a higher pay letter (your last pay). s://forums.salary.sg/images/icons/icon7.gif

Joke aside, either you quit and re-join for higher pay but losses all the benefit that you accumulated for 5 years or look for alternate door with higher pay or get promoted for higher pay.

U know how ST doing their work

Sorry lo. During interview the perm staff bluff me that it's the same and contract is like probation before convert to perm

It's only after I joined and worked 2 years realised that it's day and night.
Annual leave perm have more.
Bonus also perm have more.

Outsource is hired to do the work for the perm staff. Like their tools like that.
Thank god I left after 2 years and didn't waste my time here