Salary.sg Forums - Lawyer Salary

“legal academia requires so much more sacrifice than just going straight into practice.”

Hahahhahahahahahha. That’s all I need to say in response to the absurd suggestion.

Anyone who believes that the academic life requires “sacrifice” clearly has never been an academic.

Unregistered

29-05-2022 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219533)

is litigation really that bad? I am a law student. if liti is so sh-t then why would people still choose liti?

Liti lawyer here. Liti is more fun and intellectual stimulating than corporate work IMO. You are actually doing work that people associate with lawyers - analysing the law, crafting arguments, arguing before a judge/arbitrator, cross-examining witnesses, etc. Through your arguments in court, you can actually contribute to the development of the law and see your cases being reported, which is very fulfilling.

Corporate lawyering is not really "legal" per se and is more about finding precedents, due diligence, going through closing checklists, quibbling over language in a contract. If you went to law school wanting to actually practise law, I don't feel like corporate work scratches the itch.

People who moan about liti are usually people who don't enjoy such work in the first place. They have no passion for the law and it's just means of income to them. If so, then sure, you can make as much or more money as a corporate lawyer.

Unregistered

29-05-2022 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219533)

is litigation really that bad? I am a law student. if liti is so sh-t then why would people still choose liti?

Different strokes for different folks. As someone mentioned above, litigation is far closer to the "academic" side of law than transactional work, so it may attract people who really like the intellectual aspects of practice.

But you need to remember that law is also a business. It's no longer an ivory tower profession it once was in the 1800s. Lawyers can't simply wear wigs, sit in their hollowed chambers to dispense nuggets of wisdom to clients divorced from commercial reality, and expect to get paid for it.

To justify their existence (and comparatively high fees), lawyers need wade into more "business-like" aspect of things like facilitating deal flow, like the investment bankers, valuations advisers and HR/public relations agents. Even if this kind of work doesn't engage the "hard law" aspects.

As for why many law students still choose liti, my take is this: it's ingrained in law school as the default path for lawyers. Academic legal doctrine is mostly learned through judgments/cases which are the very product of litigation. Most law professors were ex-JLCs or had spent most of their practice time in liti practice (barring the adjuncts who are hired to teach more practical/commercial causes).

During my time in law school, it was common career advice (by well-meaning but naïve profs) for law students to working in litigation first, even if you intended to ultimately do corporate law. Btw, this is rubbish obsolete advice which has proven detrimental to many a law grad's career.

Unregistered

29-05-2022 01:43 PM

agree with above

corp work is nothing but high class clerk
and not really lawyer lawyer work

anyway so for same salary, why still bother doing such tough work in liti?

Unregistered

29-05-2022 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219479)

If money is what you want then you should not apply PSC. Get into a top UK law school and work in a MC firm in London thereafter.

Another factor that should be considered is your interests in public law v corporate law/commercial litigation. Applying the PSC Scholarship means you will be bonded to do the former for a few years.

This advice is correct. Recently more Legal Service (scholars?) people moving out to international or big4 firm. Might as well start in magic circle from very start?

Unregistered

29-05-2022 03:30 PM

My junior from CC just got qualified and her starting pay is $14.2k in M&A. Is this the norm for NQ?

Unregistered

29-05-2022 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219598)

My junior from CC just got qualified and her starting pay is $14.2k in M&A. Is this the norm for NQ?

Yes after their 2 yrs of training contract, thats the magic circle NQ pay in singapore (cc included).

I rather be at US white shoe firm - first year minimum can get mid-atlantic or cravath pay

Unregistered

29-05-2022 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219597)

This advice is correct. Recently more Legal Service (scholars?) people moving out to international or big4 firm. Might as well start in magic circle from very start?

International and big firms will still look at their Scholar or Government background. No surprise..

Unregistered

29-05-2022 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219598)

My junior from CC just got qualified and her starting pay is $14.2k in M&A. Is this the norm for NQ?

Is CC matching or outpacing the MC firms in SG? What about silver circle?

Unregistered

29-05-2022 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219605)

Is CC matching or outpacing the MC firms in SG? What about silver circle?

It's paying about the same as the other MC in SG, just that it's the only one with a 2-year SG training programme (coz it has SG partner). Linklaters also has a training contract but only after you finish 6 months with a random firm.

SC firms in SG pay slightly less.

Unregistered

29-05-2022 04:55 PM

Apparently for WongP, firm offering 6.2k-6.8k for retainees. Annual pay with bonus, they can expect around 82-88k.

Unregistered

29-05-2022 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219598)

My junior from CC just got qualified and her starting pay is $14.2k in M&A. Is this the norm for NQ?

2 PQE if you superstar billings can nego 20 to 25k in some firms.

Unregistered

29-05-2022 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219607)

Apparently for WongP, firm offering 6.2k-6.8k for retainees. Annual pay with bonus, they can expect around 82-88k.

This is within expectations and in line with recent Big 4 wide salary bumps. It's still a far cry from UK and US firms' recent salary wars, but we're not a first-tier financial centre/ jurisdiction so we take what we can get.

High time I say. SG legal industry pay has been pathetically stagnant or even recessive for the last decade and outpaced by other industries, inflation and other COL factors.

The darkest period in recent memory was the 2016-2017 slashing of pay by the large firms. My middle category lawyer homies will remember.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219599)

Yes after their 2 yrs of training contract, thats the magic circle NQ pay in singapore (cc included).

I rather be at US white shoe firm - first year minimum can get mid-atlantic or cravath pay

Lol. “I rather”. I rather be owner of Tesla.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219486)

Couple of misconceptions here:

Most of the SCs who join the judiciary eventually stay there for years, if not until they retire. The ones who have left after a JC term in recent years were the non-liti folks (eg Edmund Leow, Lee Kim Shin). So no, joining the courts is not about building the CV for tribunal work or to call in favours. It's usually a one-way street.

There has also been some talk in the market that some of the SCs who had recently joined the Courts did so because their books of business were waning, but this is purely hearsay.

It is true that there will always be demand for litigation, and there will always be the top end of the market to grab for the top tier folks. But there are a few features of being a disputes lawyer that make it "bo hua" for most people:

1. Mid to high level disputes work is very time consuming and mentally taxing, while at the same time requiring alot of detailed work and project management as well. Unlike in corp or transactional practice areas, you can't substantially rely on precedents, and you often have to relearn everything for every file. While corp life is not a bed of roses as well, and comparing on an apples to apples basis, life as a disputes lawyer is generally speaking, not as good, especially when you take into account the contentious/argumentative nature of the work. The work done for a $10m dispute can arguably even be more intensive than a $100m transaction because of the contentious nature of disputes.

2. Disputes work, at least at the higher end, is quite credentialist, more so than in non-contentious practices. Your lack of a FCH or the fact you are from a "lesser" uni will work against you more than in the non-contentious practices.

3. At the assoc level, your ability to move into high paying intl firms is very much less than your corp peers. See recent years where all of the b4 corp depts have been depleted by intl firms - not so for disputes. You are also arguably at a disadvantage for most of the best inhouse roles as well, because these typically prefer corp or reg experience.

4. At the partner level, previous posters have highlighted the squeeze in fees at the lower to mid end work, as well as the fact that you are being squeezed by intl firms at the higher end for arb work. Also, if you are keen on higher end work, disputes is a "superstar" centric practice area, i.e. all the big work naturally gravitates to the SCs, so as a junior partner in a bigger firm, it may be very difficult to build a good book or even be first chair, especially as most of the SCs will be sticking around for a long time. I think for corp this is less of an issue, as there is less pressure to be the "lead" counsel on transactions.

I would think that SCs join the judiciary for two reasons. First reason as you said, their books are shrinking as international firms are eating into their once-exclusive pies. Second reason, they are very exhausted. The challenges from litigation can be interesting but it is tiring as well, more so if you are a married middle-aged practitioner with a family and you lack the energy that younger practitioners possess.

Litigation will always be relevant regardless of level but you rightfully pointed out whether the time and effort expended commensurate with the costs you are entitled to. Already, they are preaching that law is a calling, which my pessimistic side is interpreting as an incoming cap on all forms of litigation costs will be sooner rather than later. Also, ADR is the Court's way of controlling costs and any practitioner will know, the amount of time and effort spent on preparing the case for arbitration or mediation is not much lesser than preparing for a trial.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 01:19 PM

I'm intending to apply to AGC. Anyone knows which division (Crime or Civil) should I indicate as my first choice? For example, which division offers better exit options, just in case?

I don't mind either since I'm interested in both types of work (prosecution vs advisory/non-criminal litigation).

Unregistered

30-05-2022 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219692)

Are you PSC scholar / oxbridge? If not, why u going?

Unregistered

30-05-2022 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219692)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219692)

Best exit options from AGC are white-collar crime (investigations and maybe commercial liti) and maybe IAD (if you want to branch out into PIL or investment related work). AGC civil is very different from private practice work.

But most people are stuck in blue collar crime and can't get out, and you may not have a choice and still end up there, as the demand for blue collar crime is the highest.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219701)

Not sure that's all correct. How much PIL work is there internationally apart from ICSID-type arbitrations? Even then, they look for competent litigators.

So I would say what do you want in the long-term? If litigation is not your cup of tea, then of the 2 options, go for Civil. If you want to be a good advocate then Crime is probably your best bet.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219701)

This is probably right … most get funnelled to blue collar crime. Then very difficult for them to have exit options, even thought a good number are burned out already.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219712)

This is probably right … most get funnelled to blue collar crime. Then very difficult for them to have exit options, even thought a good number are burned out already.

Dont worry. AGC has very good work life balance. You will outlast your peers in B4 and will have a long legal career, unlike those who burn out and become in house counsels.

Unregistered

30-05-2022 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219709)

PIL work doesn't necessarily mean private practice, it can also mean PIL work in UN/other international organisations as well. IAD experience helps especially if you have a good pedigree to begin with, even for firms which do a lot of investment arb.

Unregistered

31-05-2022 04:51 PM

Jlc

Hi, was wondering when the invitation to apply for jlc arrives? Would appreciate any insights!

Unregistered

31-05-2022 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219752)

How many Singaporeans make it to PIL / UN / international org type work or positions thru private practice though? Even in the whitest of the white shoe firms.

To get a chance to be even nominated for these positions, mostly is funneled through AGC, MinLaw, MFA and/or some other official state backing. If the government doesn't back you, chances of your name even being considered for these positions is slim.

Few recent examples - latest head of WIPO and head of FATF are Singaporeans with long careers in public service.

Unregistered

31-05-2022 08:28 PM

Learned friends,, any truth to the IMH allegations made by Charles yeo on his SM?

Unregistered

31-05-2022 10:36 PM

rajah and tann - 7.2k starting, nq can expect 92-108k annual salary after bonuses.

Unregistered

31-05-2022 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219855)

rajah and tann - 7.2k starting, nq can expect 92-108k annual salary after bonuses.

And here comes the BS again...

Unregistered

01-06-2022 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219855)

rajah and tann - 7.2k starting, nq can expect 92-108k annual salary after bonuses.

One of the worst law firms in sg

Unregistered

01-06-2022 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219855)

rajah and tann - 7.2k starting, nq can expect 92-108k annual salary after bonuses.

The starting is just about right. The bonus not that high la

Unregistered

01-06-2022 01:52 PM

CY quote: "Mr Lee Hsien yang warned me (=CY) a few weeks ago that the dictator and Shanmugam were planning to push through such laws that provide for imprisonment for lawyers who "abuse court processes"" ............................
hearsay?? insider info from LHY to CY?? LHY isn't keen to come out to take responsibility for his views, CY's a pawn being used by bigger forces as a spokesman aka fall guy?

Unregistered

01-06-2022 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219855)

rajah and tann - 7.2k starting, nq can expect 92-108k annual salary after bonuses.

Accurate. Tho 2 months bonus more accurate for NQ

Unregistered

01-06-2022 03:36 PM

Litigation/disputes is looking increasingly bleak as time goes by.

First you have the new ROC which heavily incentivises ADR and settlement. Interlocs are now under one SAPT, which limits how much the lawyers on both sides can churn.

Then you have the recent LPA amendment allowing Conditional Fee Arrangements, which is basically one step removed from full-on champerty. All done in the name of enhancing Singapore's competitiveness as a dispute-resolution hub and weeding out unmeritorious claims i.e. shrinking the pie. Previously you could reject demands for no-win-no-fee arrangements on the basis of illegality. Now if a big MNC demands this, you can refuse but someone will eventually agree to it - again everyone loses.

Finally you have the issue about Gen Z associates which, to be fair, is not peculiar to disputes. Disclaimer i'm a millennial myself but frankly i don't fancy dealing with Gen Z assocs in the unlikely event I stay long enough to make partner. Won't be surprised if they will ask for twice as much for half the work.

And the EPs realise this too. Bumping salaries at the expense of retaining trainees, or worse, offering silly "perks" instead of bumping salaries, all just stopgap measures and can-kicking that they hope will last till they retire.

Unregistered

01-06-2022 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219855)

rajah and tann - 7.2k starting, nq can expect 92-108k annual salary after bonuses.

What's a s$10-20k bonus today? 1 long haul flight in first class and that $ is gone. Barely or not even enough for SQ suites.

Unregistered

01-06-2022 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219899)

One of the worst law firms in sg

explain? genuine question

Unregistered

01-06-2022 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219924)

What's a s$10-20k bonus today? 1 long haul flight in first class and that $ is gone. Barely or not even enough for SQ suites.

Stop penny pinching a EP makes millions

Unregistered

02-06-2022 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219861)

And here comes the BS again...

EthosBC salary guide 2022 says the salary ranges for Big 4 is:

First Yearer: $7.5K - $7.9K
2nd Yearer: $8.5K - $9.2K
3rd Yearer: $9K - $10.5K
4th Yearer: $10.5K - $11.8K
5th Yearer +: $12K & above

Seems correct leh. Or you saying EthosBC also BS-ing?

They have no reason to BS also. Most local firm placements/laterals for juniors also done thru direct hires, not through recruitment firms (cos Big 4 are too cheap to use recruiters and there's no lack of lateral applicants).

Unregistered

02-06-2022 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 220054)

This is 100% wrong. It is too high even if I take "First Yearer" to mean 1PQE (not NQ).

Just go ask any of your B4 friends...

Unregistered

02-06-2022 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 219804)

Hi, was wondering when the invitation to apply for jlc arrives? Would appreciate any insights!

Also wondering about this, I’m in the top 10% for smu but haven’t yet received anything

Unregistered