Job hunting
 

Hi all, I’m thinking of starting to apply out of my current firm.
2 going 3 PQE.

Corp assoc, small boutique firm. General corp with big enough projects here and there.

Planning to start the process in March so that I can leave my current job no later than June

1/ Are the Big 4 corp teams, FLA corp teams hiring.

2/ Which are the better larger firms/teams for career prospects.

3/What starting pay should I be looking for? Getting slightly below 6k

4/What starting pay if I were the consider in house roles

5/I have been rejected by Big 4 before, would it be worth reapplying but this was way much earlier in my career at 1 PQE

Much appreciated seniors for advice as I hope to exit the sweatshot I’m in.

re (5), not from corp (b4 liti) but have seen peers join the firm as laterals in my second year onwards, same peers who initially could not land a tc with the firm. the turnover is so high in b4

Saw an interesting job ad on eclassified.

Singapore Attorney
Singh Law Firm
Practitioner | Outside of CBD | Overseas | Other
Boutique New York law firm seeks a Singapore attorney to handle local arbitrations and court actions (civil matters only). Work will be primarily remote with the exception of court and arbitration appearances. Attorney will also advise our US counsel on Singapore laws, and assist with research related to Singapore. Anticipated workload is between 20-30 hours per week; schedule is flexible. Attorney may take on other clients and cases as long as our work is handled on a priority basis. Flat annual salary of $60,000 USD. Looking for a candidate that can start immediately.

How does this even work? Does anyone know. Consulting arrangement or what. Where does one park his PC and obtain insurance?

Any idea how much the average equity partner in B4 earns? Edwin Tong 2m considered high end or average?

Evidently, you start your own firm (or have your firm agree to let you do this) and get "instructed" by them for cases.

I don't think that they are actually going to "hire" you lol.

Most do not even hit 1m

Edwin forsaw the decline of the big4 like lucian and hri. They all left in a jiffy to nice cushy jobs without billables.

Wld an average mid tier EP hit around $500 to $700K per annum? Or lower? Say in firms like SLB, Stamford, Dentons?

Already i think that seems rather low for the stress and effort. If cannot even hit $500K then super bo hua to remain in practice

Proof that ppl here do not know what they are on. A new EP in B4 can easily pull in between 600k to as high as 1 plus million, depending on their seniority as well.

What about mid tier firms?

On first analysis, one would assume that the mid-tier EP comp ranges are slightly lower because their top lawyers' charge-out rates are considerably lower than those in B4. However, there are other factors to consider:

1. Firm's lawyer leverage ratio: B4 non-EP to EP leverage is very high (i.e. tons of non-EP fee earners doing grunt work and billing/generating revenue, but in turn the firm has a very high cost base due to staff salaries). In mid-tiers, leverage is usually much lower (i.e. EPs do much of the work and bill at higher rates, and firms' salary expenses are lower because the fee earner teams are very lean).

2. Equity distribution: In smaller firms, equity is closely held by a few key partners whilst the equity partnership is bigger in B4s. So some mid-tier EPs may be making bank and even exceeding the drawings of some of their B4 EP peers, but 90% of the other partners in the firm are mere salaried.

This is correct - with emphasis on the equity part.

Tax openings
 

Am an NQ from disputes jumping into tax practice, after having some thought on how picking an area of specialisation would help. Going to a small tax outfit instead of the big names out there - any advice on the timeliness of my move? I took a paycut of SGD1k for this jump and am going for a month long break because of burnout with my soon to be ex boss, a bit worried about whether my departure from disputes appears too rushed. New firm boss is older and slower (as much as I could glean from the interview) but his assocs all leave due to the low pay. (I took it because I really want to train in tax as an NQ....)

Any views on tax practice in SG? Is it a better idea than disputes?

how much does linklaters pay in sg for a 0 pqe

Oh dear… moving to a tax practice is a bad idea. And moving to a tax practice at a really small firm with low pay is a really bad idea. I would recommend that you plan your exit ASAP unless you are being groomed as the protege to take over your new boss’ business (provided he has a good book of business).

Very few full service law firms in Singapore do tax. The reason for that is that tax planning and advice are being given by your big 4 accountancy firms at much lower price/greater efficiency. For real legal tax queries, they are being handled by your international practices in Singapore like Baker. Your big 4 firms like WP do have a tax department, but they are typically seen as a tag-along department that’s not particularly profitable.

You need to know that tax is an ancillary practice area that feeds off other practice areas. For instance, M&A - if you have a huge M&A deal, the tax department would typically be consulted on the specific tax law points.

Tax has always been a niche area in SG and the community is small. has good in-roads into parallel practice areas such as funds / private client / trade, and with BEPS2.0, maybe some international tax practice work as well in the coming years. Not ideal if your end goal is in-house practice.

Do SG law firms do layoffs in a bad economy or just salary freezes?

I know that US firms do cut entire batches of associates. Haven't really heard of that in SG firms apart from the salary slashing back during the 2015-2017 period.

Heard its NQ is approx 14.5k, which is magic circle rate.

Lower than the US firms which give cravath rate (24.5k starting) or mid-atlantic (17k starting).

But still higher than silver circles which start 11k.

Wish to jump to A&G from a small firm. Currently serving my probation, is it an unsaid rule in the industry to serve 1+years before jumping if not it wont look good on CV?

It’s not ideal to train at a tax practice in a small firm. Most tax related work are being done by big 4 accountancy firms at a fraction of the cost, and for the more complex legal tax matters, they are being done by a select international firms (e.g. baker). Would recommend that you pivot out of tax asap.

I know I am a good lawyer, and I was born for this cause, to present arguments persuasively, powerfully and eloquently. The more high profile the case is, the higher the value and quantum in dispute, the more excited I am, because I can pit myself against the best. Through it all, I felt that I lost so much. I have built fervent chambers into a top 5 boutique law firm in Singapore, I was a leading name in a number of practices of law, and I had everything going for me up until the suspension.

If anyone wants me to give his expertise and professionalism to your high quantum arbitration matter, please feel free to reach out to me anytime. I am now a leading arbitrator that will be ranked in Legal500 and Chambers in times to come.

How to leave law for consulting/IB?

Why not IRAS? Lots of IRAS lawyers go on to big4/baker after a few years.

How do i know which US firms pay cravath rate , and which pay mid-atlantic?

JSKM

If you ask around enough, you'll find out. Only a few firms in Singapore pay Cravath outright - MoFo, Milbank, Cooley. The latter two require US qualification. The former - depends on practice area.

The rest of the US firms pay mid-Atlantic. Some of these US firms will bump you up to Cravath scale if you get US qualified and/or if you have proven yourself as capable in the firm (e.g. Dechert, L&W, Sidley, etc.).

When talking about salaries across US / UK firms, it's always good to state at the outset whether, for UK firms, "NQ" refers to the Singapore or UK scale. No Singapore qualified NQ moving to a magic circle firm is going to get 14.5k.

Unless you have a business / economics / accounting degree, CFA, and/or actual experience in financial modelling, you're not moving into consulting or IB. Fat hope. Skillsets for law vs consulting / IB at the low level are completely different.

If you are dying to leave the profession, go pick up these skills and get an MBA.

Thoughts on gateway law’s arbitration practice? Team looks pretty formidable vis a vis the international outfits.

WOw the regret has never been stronger to be stuck in law

Hi Simon

10char

Current smu student here, I would want to practice in the US. Is the only way to do that by getting a US LLM after I finish school at SMU?

lol not like finance is much better buddy. go ask your friends in finance.

LLMs are not very useful in breaking into the US market. You should try getting some working experience in a top-tier firm in Singapore first, work towards getting your US qualification, then hit up a recruiter to get you interviews with firms in the US.

This method is a bit less risky and costly too.

At least they don't earn $1,250/month for a year

lmao rip but i don’t think they’ll pay trainees trainee pay for 12 mths? surely they’ll increase to peg to Exec pay after first 6 mths of one year TC? :thinking:

lawyer will be replace by chatgpt just ask the question it give the legal advice.

The legal profession in its modern iteration has never been about gatekeeping legal knowledge. All the knowledge is there in practitioner texts, textbooks, journals and even online articles (to varying degrees of accuracy). Coffesshop uncles have access to these info at their fingertips.

Rather, lawyering is all about monetizing the blood, sweat and labour of hundreds of bodies called young lawyers and fresh grads (doing the most mundane tasks like due diligence, sifting through data rooms or piecing veritable mountains of boring as fk documentary evidence into a coherent case theory) and turning such labour into a product for clients, in exchange for that sweet sweet monetizable billable hours.

And doing it on an industrial scale so as to be profitable, I might add.

People who claim that AI or chatGPT will replace lawyering reveal how little they actually understand what the legal profession is. All it will do is to help lawyers monetize their product better.

I am a PQE 3 lawyer, who is specialised in civil and commercial litigation.

I am thinking of setting up my own chinatown 1 man law firm.

Anyone here has done so? Is it likely for me to make more money than being employed by big4?

I looked at my billables and I generated alot of money for the firm. However, I only get paid a small fraction of it.

If I go out on my own, is it very hard to find clients?

anyone knows how hard it is to lateral to international firms like CC and A&O from a big 4 commercial practice?

Honestly just go on linkedin and message any of them and they will be more than happy to chat. I am at one of those two firms and if someone messaged me and they were sincere I'd be more than happy to provide advice or even have a coffee.

Which firms pay that low lmao