Why many engineers are leaving is also due to no recognition of work. Imagine being thrown alone to fix all the issues but in the end it's all the people who washed their hands off the problem gets the credit.

Maybe you are lucky to meet someone very capable to jump 2 grades in 3 years. For me, the person did the same because the boss likes him to the point he can never do wrong.

The top heavy structure gets nothing done. Many many hurdles just to get an approval for something small.

Used to work with many fresh grads during my 5-6 years there. All of them left within a year. They have no basic knowledge, can't learn, won't learn, insist on doing their way as "PM". Landed the project in hot soup, the seniors in technical teams have jump in to put out fire. Threw letter the moment they find a higher paying job.

I agree many of them cannot put down their ego and eat the humble pie.

Ofc, if not how to justify M3 and M4 position.

If everything is easy, then the company become like sme liao. How to retire and eat snake of everything is fast

No 5k no talk.

Even if the people have good attitude and willing to learn. How fast can you progress him/her with such a top heavy management? Most probably also about the same time as his/her peers. Or even slower than scholars. What's the point then?

Btw attitude and willingness to learn won't get your far in ST. You need your boss to like you and big boss to give you opportunities. I've seen too many good engineers not getting their promotion and credits they deserve whereas engineers doing non technical stuffs like events planning, minutes taking during management meeting, airshows and other CCAs getting promoted much faster. These are opportunities not given to all engineers, only engineers with special privilege will be involved. Often not engineering related. Resulting in those promoted engineers lacking in engineering knowledge / experiences.

What's the message the company is driving across? Technical skills not important, bootlick, event planning and other adhoc activities are more important.

lolll, where tf you get the data from that CS fresh grads' avg starting pay is 5k? loll

i can safely tell u ST won't not offer 5k to fresh engineering grads

because many of the senior engineers have not even hit 5k yet

fresh grads getting 5k will surely disrupt the harmony within the organisation

5k is not for everyone. Only that lucky few <5% got that kind of salary.
2018 in 3.8k hitting 4k on 2020 is definitely not star performer as i definitely had much more increment than that guy you were referring to during the pay repackaging plus pay adjustment(only for good performers) during 2019.

Depends on what engineering electronics, mechanical, chemical engineers ofc not. Their graduate salary also doesn't say 5k.

Conp science, tech, it student, cyber security... Their graduate survey say its around 5k
And gahmen also promoting tech job etc.

So... ST is not made up of only 1 kind of engineers. So obviously 5k starting pay do exists.
Otherwise why would any talent join ST. Its made up of lousy engineers.

Correct. There were very hardworking, experienced and selfless technical engineers left because their supervisors tried to recommend them for promotions multiple times but failed. The big bosses also only promote mostly those who don't do technical work and coincidentally, these are his favourite or those under their favourite engineers.

Their assessing criteria is also weird. The big bosses have no technical knowledge yet they can determine who has put in effort and who had not. Unfortunately, everyone can see that he promoted his favourite who kept screwing things up and pushed all the blames to the development teams.

Another thing that I cannot understand is that all the engineers are lumped together for assessment and recommendation for promotion. Project engineers, hardware engineers, software engineers, QA engineers all do different things, different skillsets and different responsibilities. How do they even determine whether a project engineer have put in more efforts than the hardware engineer?

GES 2019, NUS CS median is 5k. even 25th percentile is 4.2k. Probably still higher than some of the ST "seniors"?

No, you don't understand. Why does the younger generations have to be punish for mistakes the older generations made?

Mistakes made by older generations
- Massive promotions in the past
- Promoted incapable engineers who become "leaders" (due to job grade) today

Punishment for younger generations
- No/harder promotions due to top heavy structure
- Being lead or ordered by incapable leaders

With no/harder promotion and only living with a miserable yearly increment of X%, how can the younger generations start a family given the rise in cost of living, HDB, Transport etc. Sometimes these increment cannot even fight the yearly inflation of Singapore.

Acute observation. That's why over last few years turn over rate for some divisions very high and nothing is done. At this rate, the divisions will be in trouble once the old timers retire in the next 10 - 15 years.

that's life dude... nobody owe who a living

What I never understand is why the seniors keep complaining and do nothing about it.
The easiest option is to leave, get out of the ****hole, and get the higher pay you deserve.
Unless you're incapable of leaving, then probably just suck it up instead of whining at a public forum.

Someone whining about other people whining on public forum. HAHAHA
Biggest irony ever.

You can't even follow ur own advice, want us to give a rat ass about ur opinion?
It's my keyboard i can type as I want.

Senior are doing something about it, they are bullying fresh grad. HAHAHA.

I just have time to read the discussions and post craps here.
But unlike you, I love my tech job, and I have amazing colleagues.
I paid decently too at >10k for 6 years of experience.
I don't overwork, neither do my colleagues.
We probably work way less than 8h daily.
I guess the difference is we all work extremely smart and efficient, delivering clear value to the company, the clients and arguably even the society.
Hence, we get the pay we deserve, yet have time to mock at you whiners.

I was paid <3k as a lowly engineer when I was a fresh grad, slightly below average.
My peers were getting paid more than me, and subsequent fresh grads were paid better than me for a few years.
But I never complained and whined, just did my job well, even with the measly pay.
I also learnt whatever I can, about the tech stuff, the business, the industry and meeting peers in the same industry.
It eventually paid off I guess, I'm getting opportunities every week, easily get interviews, received an offer every now and then.

Am I bragging? Maybe.
I just feel sad for you guys, just whining and doing nothing to improve your situation.
You whine and blame ST, the HR, the management, the old jiak liao bees, the fresh grads, the foreigners, and the market.
And you frame yourselves as the poor sandwiched seniors who are overworked.
It's almost too funny reading these.

ST does. Sumpa

Sad bro. Only 10k?
5 years already 15k. You are definitely behind the curve.

good for you, so why are you complaining about fresh grads getting 5k?

with regards to "I guess the difference is we all work extremely smart and efficient".

even if you are a consistent A grader for 6 years + scholar + 4 promotion + work extremely smart and efficient in this time frame...YOU WILL NOT HIT 10K ....

If follow ST rules, obviously cannot.
But if someone hire you for 10k, then obviously can.

From the viewpoint of someone who has always been in a GLC, then yes, maybe it's impossible.
Except in the real private sector, 20-40% increment is not uncommon.
A 40-100% increment for a new job isn't uncommon too.
I got the following increments throughout these 6 years, many through job changes.
6% -> 9% -> 6% -> 46% -> 9% -> 16% -> 28% -> 22%
I have a number of peers who are paid much better than me, all in tech roles.

Mocking aside, I'm also trying to highlight the fact that the tech space is still recruiting aggressively.
If you are good enough, there are many companies which can pay good money for your talent.
So if you think you're really good, and severely underpaid, seriously why not get out?
If a fresh grad is getting paid more than you, and you can't do anything to improve the situation, it's simply a market signal that your skill sets are getting irrelevant.
So you can either just whine and complain, or you take some real actions, for the sake of yourself and your family.

That's like saying "if you are workers party you will never hit 100k per annum figure *
Then wham suddenly become leader of opposition... 385k per annum.

Ofc can la.
Anything is possible if you work for a rich and lucrative company and there is a demand for you

Can list the name of so called company? So we can call the HR to verify.
Red flag that someone change SO Many job within 6 years. 8 times in 6 years.
Red flag. So it's like you join a new company with inflated pay. Haven't really show any actual result.
Then quit and jump ship.

Sorry bro. Need the name of company for verification or your story is to bluff kids

Confirm story writer la. I don't even recall how many increment I got 10 years ago.
This guy either keep record of his incremental as bragging rights or its fake la.

Annual average is 5 to 8 %

Your story is you're average background. But you show so high increment with each job
Means you are good at lying.

Lying in one job after another. Then when the lies caught up to you. Quit and find another job.
Show LinkedIn please.

Bro, your reading skills also not very good eh?
No need to prove anything to you.
Up to you to believe, you can just accept your reality that ST is the best place.
Have a good day!

It's just sad that ST seniors refuse to see things as how they are.
Seriously, 10k for 6 years experience in tech is perhaps high, but not uncommon at all.
You can reach out to a few tech recruiters, and check with them on the current market rates.
Then you will have a better picture of how well tech sector is still doing, in spite of covid.
Companies are so desperate for good talents, none will seriously care if you work just 1 month at your current job.

Sell durian can earn 1 million per annum.
Be tech? Work until die and earn only 120k per annum.

Sell chicken rice better.

cool story bro hahaha

Yeah right I went for an interview in a "tech" company London based.
Payment / cashier stuff industry
Considered private. Their customer retail shop etc.. Office in kallang area.
For tech leaf role 10 years exp.
They gave me technical test to write SQL...
And offer only 4.8k lol.

Sure maybe your company print money.

ok la ok la, all fake news. impossible to earn 10k salary for engineers. fresh grads are useless and overpaid. ST seniors are the best. ST seniors too good for outside jobs. outside jobs are equally underpaid anyway. fresh grads are useless and overpaid, yes must say twice. ST senior wan sui!!

Cannot deny there are many companies out there with more decent increment compared to ST. At least for myself, I experienced an almost 20% increment and promotion when I left. Although the job scope is slightly different, at least my new pay was pegged roughly around industry standard.

Even without the promotion considered, my basic at least increased 5%, better than the 1 to 2% which is the norm now.

Good boi. Pat pat.

why do u even accept to go to interview for such company?? they are probably worse than ST. go read techinasia, see the amount of fundings being raised every other day. dont need to print money, investors are just giving money away. and guess where a good portion of these investors' money are going to? salary.

a company which raised 10m, you think they cant afford to pay 30yo 150k, or even care it's 150k?

Lol this stubbornness from both sides not unusual at all. Those stuck below 5k after years of experience cannot comprehend how fresh grads feel that 5k starting is "okay only". Those that breeze through their interview for 6.9k starting salary cannot understand why other people cannot "just login into linkedin and accept 6k role... don't even need to interview"

Top techies would have already read this but just sharing for the rest:
://elijames.org/the-two-tiers-of-singapores-tech-companies/

5k starting from where? u know what they do to get 5k? or give u 5k starting but do work like how u Did for your studies to get FCH?
if you are earning 10k salary, then why u still got time to come here and talk? I'm sure most people talking here have more time for themselves or finding something new to do or get some job information only.
those been paid well will nv have time to talk here or else they are just a lose that being paid 10k. They with lot's of $$ but no one really want to spend time with them.

Joined ST about 11 years ago with starting pay of 1.8k for poly degree holder. Got my degree from SIM part-time and worked for 10 years to reach E6, only to draw a basic of 3.9k. Left ST and because the expertise I have is considered very niche, it didn't take long before I joined a small SME which offered me 5.1k right away.