Thanks for the information.

would like to ask, what are the main differences between litigation and corp work? uni student looking to apply for TC soon. Thanks

Working Hours as a Practice Trainee
 

What were the working hours like as a practice trainee? I can imagine that since you are not a full salaried associate, they can't work you ridiculous hours? Would it be reasonable to request to leave the office by 7-8pm latest? Especially if you are not looking to get retained. If the supervising solicitor disagree with those work hours, what should you do? Can they threaten to withhold your call papers?

It reflects badly on you to complain about working more hours because you have no intention to stay. Just find a new firm you like that'll let you continue your TC there and work the hours that needs to be worked.

What is wrong with that?

He is paid for the hours. Why can’t he leave once the work is done? No incentive to do more right?

Sure, there may be nothing legally, or even morally or ethically wrong (arguable), with just leaving and tuning out beyond office hours as a trainee. But the fact remains that it reflects badly on the trainee, especially when the justification is "I don't plan to stay or be retained". Just do it at your own risk because while most employers won't block your call, the legal circle is small and people talk.

I'm not saying trainees should be exploited, I'm saying try to be smart about how you handle a shitty situation, for your own sake if not anyone else's.

Shut up boomer

Re Kuoh Hao Teng [2021] SGHC 79

Hi, anyone actually considered the longevity and recession-resistance of the legal industry when they wanna leave?

I am thinking of switching out to legal tech - but i feel the private practice is more of a iron rice bowl compared to legal tech. pls advise

I wish I could do my legal research like this. No summary, no explanation, nothing - just go "eh boss, nah" and put a one pager from everybody's favourite J on my boss' table.

If the trainee in question is still in this sh*tty thread for advice, here's so you don't go away empty-handed: please don't do that. You may end up leaving your TC earlier than expected.

Please switch mai tu le

I wish I could read a case but I am illiterate

U sure u wanna switch?
Recession is coming soon and u r the first one to go in legal tech. Most legal tech companies are start up and the market size is too small. That's why u don see Google, meta, Microsoft, apple venture into legal tech. Few customers, high capital. First one to shutter when recession hits

Mind my word. Stay in practice for now

Disillusioned Associate
 

Junior Assoc. Burnt out and unhappy.

Firm frequently pays salary late and reimbursements. Previous month salary still unpaid.
This has happened since my Trainee days.

Any recourse?

Chnage firm

Change firm. Write in to LawSoc to alert them and complain:
//lawsociety.org.sg/the-law-society/support-schemes/members-assistance-care-helpline-mach/

What's your qualification & practice area? School and class of honours? PQE? What type of work do you primarily do?

With the current shortage/attrition of juniors, there's no reason to put up with toxic environments. Get out of there ASAP.

Your current burnout might be due to the unfair and toxic working conditions which you face and you might actually like practice in a supportive & fair environment. Give a better firm a fair shot for a while and see if practice is still for you.

I agree but it may not be due to exploitation but the unreliability of salary payments.

Practice trainee
 

It is this sort of attitude that perpetuates a culture of abuse in the industry. If enough trainees/associates push back in numbers sufficient enough to make an operational impact of the situation is not rectified, there will be quick and drastic changes from the top down…

Interesting discussions above. I think Adrian tan has sparked an industry-wide conversation on what kinds of environments and treatment junior lawyers ought to accept.

That said, any change in culture must come from the big firms. If they don't lead the way in best workplace practices, change will not percolate to the mid tiers.

At the risk of being cynical, I think working conditions for small firms will continue to remain crappy. Most small law firms are too disconnected from the wider industry to be shaped by progressive trends.

The typical abusive and exploitative 65-year-old small firm proprietor close to retirement is hardly going to inform himself about what is appropriate or inappropriate treatment of his employees, nor is he going to be perturbed at the fact that what's acceptable treatment 30 years ago isn't acceptable today.

The best advice I can give to juniors is, to know your worth and don't be gaslighted or accept abuse. The toxic, previous-generation mindset that "you should be grateful to be employed" and "youngsters should slog it out without complaints in their formative working years" does not and never did hold water.

Spoken like a true boomer EP living off the sweat and tears of juniors. Recession incoming? More like recession ending soon and boom times ahead with the covid pandemic drawing to an end.
Go back to berating juniors for "not working hard enough" while you got in during early during the good times, like our out of touch million dollars politicians.

RHTLaw Asia is hiring associate. Thinking of joining

How is the working environment there? Do associates do solely legal work? Or are they like glorified secretaries?

Corp lawyers at mid sized are mostly glorified secretaries. If you like Paya Lebar go for it!

How about their litigation department?

Anyone got the RnT internship?

Yup what u wanna know?

Why go R&T for internship?

RHT Associates
 

How much are RHT Legal Associates for corp and liti of 1-2pqe paid?

Not enough to slog it out in a ho hum mid tier firm

Junior associate billing pressure
 

How many hours are junior associates expected to bill on a monthly basis? If said junior associate doesn’t meet those billing hours, what happens? I doubt they are shown the door due to the shortage of associates now..?

Totally agree.. I realised the toxicity builds up after one stays for sufficiently long time at a toxic firm. I guess it’s alright to switch firms regularly if that happens; do law firm recruiters take issue if your resume shows you firm hopping?

Toxicity
 

Is Junior Assoc bullying trainees, or even fellow junior Assocs a common phenomenon?

Of course. That is how you learn in this industry.

Not true, I have had the pleasure of having good mentors who would take the time to teach. I make sure I do the same to my juniors. Please choose your teams wisely, there are some teams culture is good. Don’t undersell yourself. It’s a seller’s market (at the junior associate level) right now.

So after all this talk, what is Adrians plan to combat exploitation in the legal industry?

Hahaha, his plan is not to tackle exploitation. His plan is to raise his profile and NATO.

More support helplines and care packages and exhortations to allow remote working.

Anything but tackling the real issues - raising salaries, reducing 24/7 on-call culture, toxic bosses and unnecessary busywork

I thought he proposed increase the intake of law students?.. maybe he’s hoping the glut would return..

On another note, I heard a couple of partners lamenting that their associates like to wfh and blaming it on them being ‘introverted’? Are majority ‘introverted’ because I know most like to wfh if given the choice. Is this trait a hindrance to surviving and becoming a partner in practice?

Hi all

I am a Malaysian law student who is gonna graduate from NUS Law soon. Would getting a TC be hard for me? Esp with the increase in qualifying salary for work passes in budget 22

No please approach sir adrian who will gladly give a tc to you

Probably. Are there even more than a handful of Malaysians studying in NUS or SMU in the first place? I think there was a grand total of 1 or 2 Malaysians in my NUS batch years ago.

This is a very niche question which probably applies to less than 10 people per year across all 3 local law schools, so you're better off reaching out to your Malaysian peers directly. Furthermore, its hard to say how the market will respond to such a new development.

For obvious reasons and as a matter of policy, entry to the Bar is normally restricted to Singaporeans and PRs. Which is why overseas scheduled law grads must be citizens or SPRs to be "qualified persons".

Your easiest bet is to actually qualify in Malaysia and apply to work here as a foreign lawyer.