Fellow student here. Based on what I read from the posts so far, WKW and Dentons Rodyk & Davidson LLP pay slightly less or equivalent to B4. Can any seniors confirm if correct/ any changes?

A&G (2020)
NQ - 5.6
1PQE - 6.6
2PQE - 7.6
3PQE - 9.0

BMWL (2020)
NQ - 7.5
1PQE - 8.5
2PQE - 9.5
3PQE - N/A

DRD (2020)
NQ - 4.8 - 5.0
1PQE - 6.3
2PQE - 7.5
3PQE - 8.5

D&N (2020)
NQ - 5.8
1PQE - 6.4 - 6.8
2PQE - 8.0
3PQE - 9.2

R&T (2020)
NQ - 5.8
1PQE - 5.8 - 6.6
2PQE - 7.2 - 7.6
3PQE - 8.0 - 8.8 - 9.3

SLB (2020)
NQ - 5.4
1PQE - N/A
2PQE - N/A
3PQE - N/A

WP (2020)
NQ - 5.4
1PQE - 6.1
2PQE - 7.2
3PQE - 9.2

If you liked this post, please don't thank me. Instead, please reply to this post with some variation of You're welcome.

P.S. BMWL is your new favourite category on PH. Try it. It's better than chicks with dicks.

first useful post in ages, you have my upvote

on a side note, why does the other Drew and R&T pay more than AnG/WP despite the latter having ostensibly more corporate work?

Auntie simi is PH

You are a legend. One of the most useful posts on the forum ever. You got the numbers at my firm spot on. Now if only someone could do this with international firms as well..

Thought BMWL had increases recently?

The most useful post in about 2 years lmao

Shocking that DRD's NQ salary is so grossly sub par.

That's even worse than some midsized firms. I thought they're the biggest outside the B4 and international tie-up to boot.

I second this. You are the best

WP's one is no longer correct. The salary there is the covid-decreased salary which has been reversed. It's now 6k for NQ, 6.8k for 1 PQE.

However, this is with a frontloaded component. Overall, you're still getting less than the other B4 in terms of annual package. Really a scammy firm.

So after taking into account frontload, do people get any residual bonus?

Aren’t the rest (other than BM) front loaded too?

Re DRD: Goes to show that international tie ups don’t translate to increase in $$.

JD at USYD / Monash / UNSW ? Thoughts?

Yes. Shitty bonus the first year, after that it's performance dependent.

What even is the point of these intl tie ups then? Esp when play local/intl payscales, I employed by WL instead of BM

oh sorry the question regarding some thoughts about JD at usyd / monash / UNSW is a legit question. not to roast anyone or anything.

are aus law degs well regarded? i saw some poster kept typing crap abt uk schools.

i read aus schools are easy to get in because it's good money for them but to do well is another story.

also what is the view on mid career switchers in the legal industry? probably will be more than 10 years older than the avg grad from our local uni after finishing the bar exams etc.

i am in the banking industry but i am not looking to do banking related stuff in legal. my interest lies in policies and economics and the related social impacts.

sounds more social science than law but i guess law has its weight in the issues as well.

Why not SMU or NUS?

Amazing how big the pay disparity is between those in B4 and small/boutique firms. 2-3 PQE and still earning less than NQs in Big 4. What’s in it for those in small/boutique firms?

BM is the best firm in Sg because of the exit opportunities for local lawyers.
Just go see what some of them do next. Impressive.
Like US white shoe, etc

Link me some linkedin profiles?

It's well-known that the exit opps for BM are subpar compared to WP/AG. Their corp departments are all T2 at best.

Re DRD: Is this generally quite true for most of the JLVs (lower $ than B4s)? In that case, people join them (instead of B4s) more for the experience then?

No, for the JLVs like DRD, people join them cause they cant get into the dept they want in B4.

For BMW, there's at least an argument that you get a better starting salary.

honestly it really depends on ur aptitude. the mid career switchers/JDs that i've come across range from very good to very lacking.

common traits for the cmi ones include: inability to tahan ****, lack of humility because they think they're older, thinking that some work is beneath them. this is KEY because law firms don't care how many years u have in so-and-so industry or that you spent $30000 on a JD. you start as a grunt like every 24 or 26 year old NQ, so suck it up and do the menial work. Don't like it? Don't join law.

Common traits for the good ones: ability to talk to and hold their own clients, driven, maturity in thinking, understanding of industry needs. basically client facing soft skills.

"interest lies in policies and economics and the related social impacts." --> suggest u don't do law because commercial law is nowhere close to this (at least the kind of work local firms do) and is incredibly dry. What may come close is AGC's international affairs division or or MFA or MTI (they hire a fair no. of lawyers iirc), or some policy division of a Ministry. Barring AGC, you need to compete with grads from all fields including scholars. Law really wouldn't advantage you compared to a Ministry scholarship holder with an Ivy League degree.

Look at firms like Milbank, MoFo etc
I don’t see lawyers from b4 ending up there

Probably applies to the larger, well known departments like M&A or banking. A simple Google search shows that BM’s investment funds team is T1, for example.

I guess because a lot of Big 4 teams have a very local focus. BMWL is quite integrated into the BM network. The cross border experience is way more natural. A lot of laterals also ask for people with experience in international firms.

Big 4 peeps will likely have to move to MC/SC before moving to US firms.

Honestly not all international tie ups are made the same. Look for those where it is actually set up by partners from the international outfit. Even then, pay is often not uniform across the international part and the local part.

Above is of course general sentiments. Many people from big 4 and non big 4s (though lesser for the same reasons above) like TSMP, Stamford, SLB, Rodyk and HEP also do end up in the real international firms and lasting long.

Agree with OP that the B&M corporate teams may not be as renowned as that at WP/A&G.

Despite so, it’s worthwhile noting that B&M has a decent international brand name (this is where the international tie-up is helpful but must be contrasted w DRD LOL!) Big 4 associates tend to lateral to magic circle firms, and it’s more rare for them to land a US/white shoe/mid-Atlantic role directly from a Big 4 firm (albeit such associates do exist e.g. in Latham, Gunderson and Sidley but are like unicorns and you have to be somewhat of a star associate).

B&M has a good track record of associates directly lateraling to MoFo, Sidley Austin, Milbank etc in certain corporate departments - just go onto the LinkedIn page of each of these firms and change the location to SG to have a look if you’re interested!

I would caveat that US firms in Singapore may require you to be called to the UK/NY bar to be paid the Cravath/new Milbank scale so that’s just food for thought.

2021 has been a hot year for lateral corporate hires from Big 4/ lower tier international firms in SG to MC/US firms in HK and London (with just the SG bar qualification). To my knowledge, such lateral associates in London based US firms would receive the full Cravath scale (barring firms like Jones Day, W&C, etc which are more of a “black box” compensation model). If you’re happy relocating, no harm shooting out an application to try! An added benefit is that the US firm pay war is now leading most UK firms in London to increase comp packages as well ;)

This sounds like a recruiter but oh wells.

Ya lor.. juniors can’t help but feel a bit jaded, esp cos we’re usually told to just suck it up and be thankful we have a job.. which is amplified when some law firms had decent revenue last year but used COVID as an excuse for shitty bonuses and annual increment for junior associates or even reduced trainee pay

If you’re not happy with your associate role just quit and move in house.
Most of my peers did and they have a better quality of life.
Don’t bother comparing.

LMAO are you for real? There's nothing "in it" for small/boutique firms. People go there if they can't go to the big firm of their choice. That's like asking why people prefer to work in Bharat Bank as opposed to Barclays or Deutsche Bank.

I suppose piss poor pay may be ameliorated by better hours and better "mentorship" if the stars align, but wouldn't count on it. small firm associates are just as likely to be overworked and exploited by toxic bosses lol

To solve the problem of overseas and local grads,
It’s actually quite easy.

Make it much longer for an overseas graduate to qualify. Instead of 2 years currently for a UK grad, make it 3 years.

Pray tell what’s the logic behind this? You need extra years head start so they can’t compete with your for jobs?

DRD such a xiasuay firm. Right there next to RHT.

RHT the RigHT firm, pfffttttttt

Would just like to say that mid-level (2-5 PQE) transactional lawyers in London and the USA (NYC and Chicago in particular) are in very hot demand, and the usual supply of Aussie laterals cannot happen for obvious reasons.

My firm's M&A team is almost totally depleted (pandemic burnout) and they're desperately trying to lateral. Same for the competition team, funds team, etc.

If anyone is jaded in Singapore and would like a pay bump, I'd advise them to reach out to a recruiter in those countries and look at moving!

I don’t know what’s the point of applying through recruiters when you can do it yourself on LinkedIn

The jobs there get updated almost instantaneously.

can talk to chiobus for the deprived LAs

May I know how many FCH SUSS gave out? How many % of FC, Second upper et cetera?

Shut up recruiter. Go back to your 3 hour boozy lunches and 4 hour "work" days on Friday and LinkedIn whoring. The rest of us have real work to do.