Anyone has idea about big 4 fresh assoc salary?

ok so rephrase - good to join and be sheridian fellow (nus) or lecturer (smu) without PQE? sheridian/lecturer same status ahaha.

5.5k thereabouts, frontloaded. work until 12 midnight everyday, weekends included.

How come? I thought 5.5k is not frontloaded ppl still get 3 months bonus

Precisely. I see so many forum posters here keep talking about partnership this, partnership that, how much do I earn as a partner, oh Big 4 partnership is not prestigious only MC is, blah blah blah. Like as though its a given or an entitlement.

Without even the slightest idea what that entails. Partnership is essentially sales. You are selling yourself, your skills, and that of your team and your firm.

If you don't make sales, you won't make (equity) partner. Sure if you stay in Big 4, you will become a junior salaried partner, which is the equivalent of a senior senior associate.

In the US firms, if you're not on the partnership track, you're "of counsel". They don't waste time keeping unproductive people around as partners.

Most people don't make partner because they can't sell. With the way some lawyers talk, its so insufferable I'm not surprised. They are only socially adept at talking to other lawyers and piss business people or the clients off. Its the good ones who can talk to the clients well that hang around for the long term.

The way people here talk, I'd bet half of them are probably students or NQ with absolutely NO idea about law firm economics.

Market is bad and too many law grads?

And I might add, most US firm associates don’t make even of counsel. Of counsel is an honour accorded only to the technically oustanding associates without a book of business. Of counsel make in excess of USD700k per year or more (depending on seniority), and don’t face billing pressure (though they still do BD, their butts aren’t on the line at the end of the fiscal year. Those who don’t make of counsel are either asked to take their last drawn pay (US$440k per year including bonuses) or leave.

That said, exit opportunities for US end of ladder associates are pretty good.

Life in US firms can be brutal, but all in all very rewarding. I’d do it all over again though, given the superior risk reward profile it offers over local firms.

It could be held under control without any tech/routines. Simple and cheap dugs help people with the disorder. Cbd works well visit site.

I think this applies more if you're trying to make partner in the Singapore office of a MC/US firm. Whereas in London, given the number of institutionalized clients there, there's much less of a focus on "sales" in corporate and finance work.

are of counsels in eversheds-harry E paid the abovementioned comp?

I doubt even partners get that sort of comp in Eversheds Harry E. I was talking about US white shoe firms - Skaddens, Milbank, Latham etc. And US$700k is the absolute peak of Of Counsel comp there, for very senior long time career Of Counsel. The norm is closer to US$360k for new Of counsel, which comes up to about US$480-500k after bonus.

Given that our big 4 newly qualified lawyers have median salaries of SG$66k (i.e approx US$48k) vs the US$180k for new associates in US BigLaw firms, I would expect that even the big4 partners earn closer to a US Of counsel than a US firm partner.

That’s not true. Big 4 senior partners could earn more than their equivalent in MC and US firms. Why? Because equity share in local firms is hopelessly uneven and pyramidal. You would be surprised how resentful junior equity partners are of the fat cats who do much less work and still take home millions of dollars a year.

You must be a student, and a clueless one at that lol.

not clueless. I just choose to believe in the egalitarian nature of law practice, and that partners will be kind to new associates and distribute the profits evenly.

Nothing like a little laughter to start the morning.

This is very misleading.

Yes in local firms, the founding head honchos like LW, CO, Darvinder etc earn more than apex partners in US firms, pulling in over US10mil per year.

But those absolute partners are few and far between. One tier below that, you have the HODs who earn between S$2mil and 3mil per year, which is significantly less than the true apex partners, and also significantly less than US firm plateau partners.

Below that, you have your “normal” equity partners, who take between S$600,000 and S$1.5mil per year depending on seniority and dept performance.

Conversely, US firm equity partners earn a lockstep scale which begins at USD2 mil.

As long as you’re not a founding head honcho in a local firm, you’re earning less than a US firm partner.

This is very misleading.

Only the top few US law firms (e.g. Wachtell, Cravath) are on lockstep at that scale. Most other US firms pay according to an eat-what-you-kill basis where compensation is tied directly to origination. New partners at such firms are unlikely to get anywhere close to USD2 m in their first year, more like 500k-1m.

Nevertheless, a US partner will often outearn an SG partner at the same level of seniority.

How do you guys cope with the brutal hours?

Adderall? Caffeine pills?

Are you guys talking about the US firms’ offices in Singapore or elsewhere? I can’t tell whether you’re comparing apples with apples or apples with oranges.

I have a stack of panadols at my desk, I make a point to work remotely as and when I can.

That’s because you don’t understand how white shoe partners are paid.

Partnership in white shoe US firms is based on a lockstep grading system, and fixed at standard unified net rates globally (adjusted for taxes). Earnings are pooled and distributed based on the points allocated to partners in your grade. They don’t adopt the eat-what-you-kill system. Consequently, SG white shoe partners make the same as NY white shoe partners, and location isn’t relevant at all. What matters is your partnership grade.

The brutality of this system is that if your earnings consistently fall below the average partner’s earnings within your grade, you either get downgraded or asked to leave. They may carry deadweights for a year or so, but never more.

But the context of the discussion above related to white shoe firms, not the mid tier US firms. The discussion was about firms which pay on the cravath scale.

Cravath partners will never take only 500k-1m, since cravath associates already pull USD440k per annum.

The above isn’t really relevant to me though. I’m lucky enough to be in a white shoe form which pays cravath, but I’m also ultimately a yellow-skinned asian who will never make partner in my current firm. I’m exiting the ladder at year 8 like the rest, and partnership isn’t my end game. Just thought I’d share what I know.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken but isn't it the case that white shoe compensation is based on a eat what you kill or modified lockstep, while the magic circle is lockstep. Which explains why many star MC rainmakers in London are decamping to the American firms because they can do much better in comp?

Isn't "who will never make partner" a bit too absolute? Don't you think the white shoes have shown they're willing to hire Singaporean partners (Farhana Sharmeen, Jac Chan etc.) for Singapore offices if need be

You do realize that pretty much the entire AmLaw100 pays Cravath scale right? (At least back when it was at 180k, I haven't followed the US market as closely since it changed to 190k)

In any case, like I said earlier, Cravath are one of the few firms where pulling in 2m in the first year of partnership is possible. But few firms have the sky-high PEP that Cravath/Wachtell does. White shoe firm's PEP ranges between Wachtell's 5.7m to Cleary's 3m. Unless Cleary's most senior partner is only making double of its most recent partner, theres no way the new partner is pulling in 2m.

Sidenote, I wouldn't rule out partnership at Cravath on the basis of skin colour, especially not when they have an ethnic managing partner.

I count my money and the pain goes away.

Antidepressants.

Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if half of my colleagues were depressed.

Drugs. Loads of drugs. That's how they survive.

How are our dear trainees doing this year!?!! Broken yet???

Such things will only happen if they have been cheated on by their boyfriend or girlfriend.
No one can be broken just by training alone unless they are going through other domestic issues. Some guys or girls have a predisposition to cheat on their girlfriend or boyfriend when the former is hard at work as a trainee.
It’s such irresponsible, insolent and unforgivable behavior that reeks of audacity and condemnation. The girl or guy who breaks up with their other half when that other half is busy training just for 6 months deserve to remain unmarried for all eternity.

Yeah when I see ppl complaining that they are unmarried and blame it on law and long working hours and no time for socializing and what not, sometimes people don’t deserve any pity because when they got such a good catch, they decide to cheat and find other guys which doesn’t work out and they change boyfriends repeatedly. How to get married like that.
For me I just married the first boyfriend I had even though we fought badly many times.
Now I realized that we were all pretty stressed out as trainees back then when everything was so uncertain. Don’t know if can pass PLC, get retained, can earn a decent living etc.
we fought and fought during those times. Somehow I gave in. Today we are happily married with 2 kids and have a thriving practice.
Just don’t understand when people keep complaining they can’t find the right guy, parents told them break up, etc. it’s all excuses.

well i guess you haven't heard of our infamous "Corporate Lawyer / Model/ Miss Universe SG Finalist/ New Paper New Face"

Noted. Will check in again in 2 months.

Please tell the tale. Heard she got her marriage annulled.

seriously you guys. Leave other people's private lives alone. That's why the legal fraternity is so toxic. Too small and too much gossip.

Anyway its only been 2 months. broken what. Trainees hardly ever do real work everyone knows that but they act like they do important client stuff. If it was so important, it would'nt have been passed to a trainee.

And the attitude of some trainees nowadays is really terrible. Highly entitled.

No pity for people in law who eventually end up unmarried when they are so choosy and picky.

No pity for law kids who date among themselves and end up hurting other’s feelings in the process.

No pity for law seniors who bully others on the pretext of stress. Sometimes when they end up with problems of their own (eg breakdown in marriage etc), it is all in the making.

Or maybe you just suck as a pupil master:)

A good number of us burnt weekends and stay till 3am daily. Some of us throw in the letter liao also. I plan to move to CAD and apply to be an IO there.

Can’t stand daily work burnt until 2 am
next day still back at 830 am
weekends and cny also burnt
trainee here doing mudane and tedious works
just threw in letter.
applied to legal service