Which other industry has a training period that is exploited by firms that make you work for $0? And have bosses that have no problem gloating about it to the media?
Which other industry has such steep pay jumps that is a double aged sword- yes it attracts ppl to get in and endure for the future $$$, but the need for employers to pay such increments plus high burnout rate essentially equates to a hollowing out of mid level and beyond lawyers.
However those that made it to equity partnership in Singapore won’t be incentivised to change the above since. Look they now own the business and such practices even if exploitative, benefits them. Moreover the legal sector is not that large enough to support as high profits in tiny Singapore, so coupled with lack of min wage and labor protections, helps these firms justify the low pay of their juniors.

understand that the 6 mths gg 1 year training period is lowly paid labour for all that work the law students have been through.

do you know that there are small local tech firms (where businesses charge tens of thousands for some sort of a basic website) lowball new developers (those that undergo some sort of traineeships) at 2+k? the work is to code, to plan the website or the app, to debug, to test, to build the database, to design the interface and to maintain afterwards. then they tell u.. "ahha u work for us we give u experience.. and after two years u can go apply and work in bigtech!!! woo~~~"

and this is not training. this is a real job. u think there's no burn out without even the seemingly high increment that u all have? ppl in tech calculate by man-hours. people naturally will question ur suitability and ability if u take too long.

in other industries u dun get the hollowing out because everywhere is the same. stay in one company with gradual progression or u jump ship and amen pray u survive in the new company.

Short answer:

In law: perceived effort > perceived reward

In other industries: perceived effort < perceived reward.

As you correctly identified however, what ppl often neglect to mention is that for these industries, e.g. IB, big tech, it is free market competition but only the very best get to reap good rewards. Those who've "made it" will of course proclaim loudly about the virtues of their industry. The vast majority are silently slogging away in less than optimal career outcomes.

I would say law is much more egalitarian due to restricted competition. Law school is already one great filter. The chances of attaining a reasonably good career outcome once you're a law student, is higher than in a more wide-open field like business or CS.

That is not true at all.
Law school and practice is different things.
You can be **** at academics, get a 2.2 overall, but e.g Davinder Singh , u can be a brilliant star litigator.

A small law firm cannot compete with the internationals in the scale and value of the work, nor the pay. It’s simple market economics.

OMG like some firms don’t use the traineeships scheme to make the government pay for their practice trainees? Did you see the ads?

The pay jumps are bad because it is artificial and imposed. If there is no lockstep after the early years and the pay start out high, local firms will not be as cheap in their ways and focus more on BD. mid level Lawyers won’t worry that much about getting replaced by cheaper lawyers a few PQE below them.

Hello everyone. Does anyone know if David Lim & Partners is a good firm? I noticed a few ads recently. Is it possible to jump from a mid-sized firm to a big 4 firm, for example, after a couple of years of PQE as well?

A small firm need not compete with the internationals. Internationals don't want to do the kind of work that Chinatown firms do. There's legal services for different price points. Rolls Royce and Toyota are both automobile companies but are not competing in the same market space.

Chinatown lawyers will never reach the heights of a big law partner salary, but most who are willing to stay on actually can find a very comfortable positions. By 5th or 6th year, the average small law firm associate may be offered profit sharing. A Chinatown firm partner who doesn't sit on his a ss all day, can comfortably takehome $20k or more a month, after overheads. Think of it like a GP running a neighborhood clinic.

That's what I mean by having optimal career outcomes. Law is a profession and is skill based. Your experience and your skill, and to an extent reputation, will contribute to your earning capacity. Its a hybrid between a true profession, and being an SME boss.

I don’t know why people like to use how much partners make against the point made about pay being too low at the junior level.
Ok the profession tops out at 6 figures for the China town firms you mentioned, and some unprofitable and cheap tech local firm is paying 2k for their young hires. Are they even comparable? You are comparing the bottom of another industry with partnership level, that is apples to oranges.

Please, everyone go look up the type of firms offering SGUNITED hashtag traineeships before you make comments about how even Chinatown firms make a lot. Even a 1-2k allowance, we are not talking about real salaries here that is deserving of gov support. need gov to copay 80%. Do you think these moneymaker law firms deserve their sgunited trainees? If these is not evidence of unprofitability, then it is evidence of cheapo-ness. Since according to some people here lawyers make so so much more money than other normal professions.

Umm...the point I was making is that even less than cream-of-crop lawyers will eventually get fairly good optimal outcomes if they stick it out long enough?

The same can't be said for many other industries who will be stuck in low pay and dead-end roles if they start at lousy small SME companies, and literally only way out of the rut is to start your own business (with no guarantee of success).

OK if you wanna compare apples to apples, then let's compare:

The top lawyers working in international law firms earning US$210K per annum Cravath salaries, are to be compared against IB, Private Equity, and FAANG people. These are the top fresh grads/juniors in their respective fields.

The mediocre lawyers who didn't study that hard/pad their CVs that much and go into local Big 4 firms, are to be compared against business grads going into your typical DBS, OCBC, UOB management associate track, or some non-FAANG tech firm.

The bottom level lawyers, who didn't study at all and graduated with Second Lower/2:2 and go into Chinatown firms, are to be compared against business grads going into SMEs, small local companies, or small tech sweatshops.

Not sure what is so difficult to comprehend?

Also don't understand why you keep whining on and on about small Chinatown firms. Sure, their junior assocs are paid depressingly low compared to an average Big 4 grad. But that's how the market is. In fact, juxtaposed against other (non-law) industries, even a Chinatown salary isn't even that low.

In every industry, there are the brightest grads who go on to take the most coveted roles. The least desired spots are filled with the least competitive grads. If they really wanted that sweet biglaw dollar, then they only have themselves to blame for not studying harder or making their CV more attractive by joining moot competitions or whatever.

The way you rank people and box people into linear categories according to their school achievements is telling.

How much someone is paid is dependent on the type of market they are in, and not what grade academics give them in school

It is a function of simply serving the singapore market, and law being very jurisdictional, that local firms aren’t making a lot. Big 4, neither, they are making too little. The point the previous posters are making is simply showing the dysfunctional side of the Singapore legal market vis a vis others

And 210k for international firms are simply starting salaries, junior pay. Because these firms are making bank. There is no point taking out some partner salary to say oh this partner is also making 210k a year, millions a year!

The way the Singapore market is unfortunately means that since the pie is already so small, and the partners keep most of it to themselves, very little trickles down to the juniors.
This is all relative, no one should be making comparisons to wholly irrelevant industries.

Newsflash: this is exactly how law firms hire their juniors! Apart from the odd few who get in from family connections, which is more illusory than real in most big firms with highly professional hiring processes.

By the way, the kind of ultra-competitive, over achieving law student you meet in law school, is exactly the kind of ultra competitive over achieving junior associate you meet in law firms. Where do you think most of the graduating law cohort goes to every year? To Starbucks to become baristas?

Don't like it? Don't play the game. No one's forcing you. I'm not the one who did jack all in school and has now ended up with a chip on his shoulder whining about being underpaid in a Chinatown sweatshop.

Are you a junior lawyer yourself who keeps repeating Chinatown, Chinatown? What is wrong with u exactly? I am curious why you have such a big prejudice against Chinatown. I love Chinatown, it's the place I get my Asian fix in every country. I'm long past the law student stage.

You haven't been sent overseas and been paid COLA rates apparently.

I have nothing against Chinatown firms. You can use the appellation Toa Payoh firm if it offends you.

#SGUnitedTraineeship #SGUT #SGUP
 

The Government will co-fund 80% of the training allowance. The range for university graduates is $1,800 - $2,500. It is exactly $1,800, bare minimum to qualify for co-funding. Wonder if it will drop back to $0 once Covid-19 is gone.

RHTLAW ASIA LLP Practice Trainee #SGUnitedTraineeships #SGUP
MCF-2020-0349867
PAYA LEBAR QUARTER, 1 PAYA LEBAR LINK 408533
Internship/TraineeshipFresh/entry level
Legal
$1,800 to $1,800 Monthly
27 applications
Posted 03 Dec 2020
Closing on 02 Jan 2021

This position be working at all times under the supervision of a Partner, who will be the Supervising Solicitor of the trainee.


Responsibilities:

Regular training sessions on all aspects of legal practice
Researching, analysing, and interpreting proposed and existing laws, statutes, and regulations
Reviewing complex written documents, drawing inferences, and making connections between legal authorities
Any other projects assigned by the Supervising Solicitor
Technical Skills and Competencies:

Analytical and Logical Reasoning, Problem Solving
Commercial awareness
Development of legal skills
Professional responsibility, etiquette and conduct
Duration of Attachement:

6 months

This position is for both recent graduates and midcareer individuals. Graduates interested in this position should possess a Degree in Law. Mid-career individuals from any qualification level can apply.


HOH LAW CORPORATION
Associate Trainee #SGUnited Traineeship #SGUP
MCF-2020-0141203
IslandwideInternship/TraineeshipProfessiona
lLegal
$1,800 to $1,800
Monthly
21 applications
Posted 01 Sep 2020
Closing on 01 Oct 2020
Report discriminatory job ad to TAFEP
Roles & Responsibilities

Traineeship Description

This is a position for motivated and talented fresh graduates with a resolute passion for upholding the law and protecting the rights of the client. Graduates in this position should be committed to continually hone their legal knowledge in various fields, as well as their research and analytical skills, while advising and representing individual persons from the community in legal matters.



This position reports to the Legal Associates and Directors, and interfaces with company managers, legal executives and other administrative staff within the firm.



Responsibilities

· Taking instruction from clients

· Conducting legal research, gathering evidence.

· Interpreting legislation and case law.

· Prepare and file pleadings and notices.

· Draft, review and manage Wills, Trusts, Estates, Contracts, Commissioning and other similar documents and tasks.



Education Qualification

LL.B. Degree



Duration of Traineeship

6 months

there's no point being miserable about it. Is it really true that people in other industries have it easier? If someone really think so, then with their A grades etc they can easily score a fancy MBA and land a fancy role in finance and then have a smooth sailing career. What a rosy picture

People in audit have their partners coming in and say yes to clients but who r the ones doing the legwork?
They work till 1am or 2am and come in at 9am and they work on weekends too.

Allen Tan is the Head of Baker Mckenzie tax.

so what's negative about baker's culture, particularly disputes that seems to be taking most of the heat?

Disputes is good. Ignore the trolls. Great training and work life balance.

Honestly if your only RLT or TC options are Hoh Law, you just take anything you can get and work upwards from there lah. Btw RHT was the firm that proudly declared they take in trainees without paying them, back in 2018.

MORE GALORE #SGUnitedTraineeships #SGUP
 

Trainee - Tax Law #SGUnitedTraineeships #SGUP
Description:
Roles & Responsibilities

ZICO Insights Law LLC is a Singapore law practice focusing on Corporate and Commercial matters. ZICO Insights Law is led by Managing Director, Yap Lian Seng, who has more than 25 years of experience in mergers and acquisitions, corporate finance and restructuring work. The firm is further bolstered by directors with vast cross-border experience and specialised in banking & finance, corporate finance, capital markets, and regulatory compliance and general litigation. To find more about us, visit:

Our Tax team has a vacancy for a law trainee. Applications from graduates from both local and foreign law schools intending to be called to the Singapore bar are very welcome.

Trainees will be supervised by Mr. Liu Hern Kuan, a leading tax lawyer and former Chief Legal Officer of IRAS. Mr Vincent Ooi will also be personally involved in the tax practice. The team handles a broad range of contentious and non-contentious tax issues, with several cases currently before the various Boards of Review. No prior experience in tax law is required as we will provide all necessary training.

We regret only shortlisted candidates will be notified.

ZICO INSIGHTS LAW LLC



Legal Trainees #SGUnitedTraineeships
ADSAN LAW LLC
Job Description
Adsan Law is a medium size law corporation providing a full range of legal services. We provide our staff with an interesting work environment, enriched with training and career development opportunities.



We welcome applications for Relevant Legal Training and Practice Training Contract. Trainees will learn the practical and ethical aspects of practising law.



Requirements



· Law graduates of Singapore universities or recognised foreign universities

· Able to work independently, responsible and well-rounded with a strong academic background

· Dedicated, meticulous and driven individuals who are team players, able to multitask and have strong research and drafting skills

· Tech savvy, with a keen interest in legal technology

Interested applicants are invited to send in their detailed resume

OMNI LAW LLC
Trainee #SGUnitedTraineeships #SGUP
MCF-2020-0143527
REPUBLIC PLAZA, 9 RAFFLES PLACE 048619Internship/TraineeshipFresh/entry levelLegal
$1,800to$1,800
Monthly
0 applicationPosted 17 Jul 2020Closing on 16 Aug 2020
Report discriminatory job ad to TAFEP
Roles & Responsibilities

Traineeship Description

Trainee will be personally trained by the Managing Director and current team to learn the basics of disputes work for both court litigation and international arbitration. Trainee will be given first-hand experience in research on legal issues, drafting of correspondence, pleadings, witness statements and submissions. Trainee will also learn first-hand the workings of a boutique law firm and develop client management skills.

Specific Responsibilities

The selected candidate will report directly to the Managing Director and will be assisting the team members in preparation of multifarious tasks straddling both office management, business development and preparation of legal materials and documents both for billable client work including dispute resolution services and corporate work and non-billable work.


Competencies


Learning about the legal processes involved in court- related work and international arbitration
Being familiar with administration of an office and systems used
Developing client-facing and legal skills
Education Qualifications Required


Law degree from recognised university with a preference for 2nd Upper Honours and above


Duration of Traineeship Offered
6 months

Eligibility Criteria for SGUnited Singapore Citizen or Permanent Resident; and
Graduated or graduating in calendar year 2019 or 2020 from recognised university.



Legal Practice Trainee #SGUnitedTraineeships #SGUP
PHOENIX LAW CORPORATION
Role Description

This position reports to the associates and directors of the firm, as well as interfaces with paralegals.

Trainees will learn the ropes of becoming an advocate and solicitor in Singapore, while providing legal support to the Phoenix Law Corporation’s team (PLC).

PLC is committed to providing robust legal advice, support and representation to both individuals and bodies corporate, emphasising client care in the form of efficiency, transparency and hard work.

Specific Responsibilities

Trainee To Be Involved In
Legal research and preparation of legal opinions
Drafting of legal documents including pleadings, agreements, and wills
Assisting lawyers for court attendance and client meetings
Filing court documents and maintaining files and records
Competencies
Legal analysis, research, writing and communication
Client management
File management and organisation
Duration of Traineeship Offered

6 Months

is there still an oversupply of lawyers in SG after the axing and hollowing out?

lawsoc stats showed a +1k practicing lawyers between 2016 to 2017 from 4+k to 5+k .. and from last year to this year it was 5+k to 6+k.. isnt that quite a significant increase...?

the assumption is that lawyers are smart and sharp.

but probably these policymakers who were adjusting the supply of lawyers back then could have used someone with a stronger math/stats background on their team to do a better forecast

Insufficient data to allow for such conclusion. "Oversupply" normally refers to too many law grads for too little lawyer jobs. The stats only capture those holding practising certificates. This by definition means these people have already obtained lawyer jobs

Also, most of the attrited lawyers go in-house and this is not captured. I reckon the number of in-housers exceed the practising lawyers significantly

Baker disputes is bad, both in terms of cases and training. Everyone knows it. You sound like you're part of their team and trying to whitewash the team's reputation.

This is a new team for some years and it's a good team with caring associates and partners and excellent training. You are probably some troll or disgruntled over something so you keep trolling. Move on from your past bitterness.

Tax in baker has solid culture. Worth going.

how long is the turnaround time to expect an interview when applying for big 4 assoc corp positions?

medium size (on the smaller end of the medium) law firm assoc looking to move up at 1PQE

how big an impact does my o level results have on my application? rofl i didn't do that well. l1r5 15. this is mind blowing. thankfully they don't ask for PSLE.

They will scrutinise everything.

Eversince boss put me on a 1.8k sgunited traineeship to save his law corporation, I cannut feel superior to those 2k tech traineeship ah bengs alr, somemore they make $200 more than me leh. Study hard no use one, everywhere also sweatshop

budden my seniors nex to my cubicle very very jealous cos last time boss say only can afford few hundred dollar for their trainee time. also they very very scared i will replace them in few year time lah.

bud hor i middle finger back at them wey, u compare wif mi 4 wud, should compare wif those other law firm dad don't even pay dier trainees mah. count blessing lah seniors, even though i earn 1k more for training i have to carry #sgunitedtraineeship label around u know, people who dunno think i low ses have to accept #sgunitedtraineeship, actuali i very power one, i stardee law ley, donch play play orh

heard that a certain big 4 firm has increased assoc salaries by around 10%, and the other big 4 firms are going to be following suit. Anyone can confirm this?

Why is everyone saying that the best law grads go to the international firms? I dont really get it - looking at the CVs of intl firm trainees, doesnt seem to be any better from those in leading big 4 practices

Which? It makes a difference y'know. The difference between the top and bottom feeders has always been a few hundred dollars.

LOL nice troll. Very convincing.

Idk tbh but it really does seem to be the case.

I suppose it's because the prospects of partnership at an intl firm is low and they know that there's a bamboo ceiling there? My friends at intl used to say you can forget about partnership as an Asian.

The partnership carrot used to be a strong incentive at the big firms. But a lot of big firms are also making up less and less associates

Baker disputes hires the best law grads in recent yrs

If you are at the top of your batch, you go to one of two places: JLC for disputes and CC for Corp. Google "Chief Justice Prize Nus Law Linkedin" and you will see that this has been true for the past 5 years.

Recent pay for TSMP?
 

Anyone knows what the pay at TSMP is like right now post-COVID? Or for the matter, the pay for NQs at mid-sized firms (e.g. Lee and Lee)?

Lol this is rubbish - I heard this batch of TC applicants all rejected baker disputes to go to one firm