If SIM students no graduates then how come some of them do masters in our local U's ? You saying local U accept people with Jc or poly qualifications ah? if you have degree means you r a graduate.

On your face mothafuka! :P

Ps don't criticise my English.This is not GP exam :P stupid people.

the famous quote "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt." comes to mind when I see this post

Don't digress from the topic discussed with some stupid quote.If you can't argue your position then I suggest you don't comment.

Then how do you define a graduate then?

Dictionary definition:

a person who has successfully completed a course of study or training, especially a person who has been awarded an undergraduate or first academic degree.

So, I don't see how SIM GE students are not graudate? Dont be sour grape or just think that you are in local uni, you are the only gradate in SG. Yes, we can't make it to local uni, we just go into the pte uni to get our paper qualification.

And yes, local uni are rank within top 100 in the world.

But frankly speaking, how many are high flyers in the corporate world? I would say almost the same % of local uni and sim graduates are the bottom feeder out in the working world and only a few % are the true high flyers.

I graduated from SIM UOL 3 years ago. Started working and made $140k the first year, $150k the second year and $170k last year. So don't give up guys! I know another guy from my cohort that makes $250k pa..

dude, what are you working as? and how's your route like?

I work in bank as a PB. I guess a degree is just an entry ticket to the job u want. Work hard, follow your passion and chart your career. With the right motivation anything is possible.

Banking BO
$3K

even if you can be believed,
we are talking about the law of averages here.

the average SIM student is not that smart compared to the public uni students.

you can argue until the cows come home about how "book smart" is not everything and its more important to have "street smarts" etc (the usual SIM retort)...but the truth is, intelligence is objective. someone who is smart and disciplined enough to do well in academics is likely to apply that intelligence and discipline to other areas of life to succeed as well.

the average SIM student will indeed face an uphill battle compared to their peers in the other unis.

It seems like this debate is never ending!

I believe this is just the typical "Singapore" culture, whereby "brand" recognition plays an important role. Honestly there never was a need to differentiate between graduates of local Uni (those 3) and graduates of others (i.e. SIM and other Long-Dist Uni).

If we want to talk about outliers, we can even find those without a degree holding top management positions in global MNCs, earning big bucks annually! How do you explain that? At the end of the day, we are all just trying to survive in Singapore. If having a piece of paper helps in landing that dream job, why not? But please don't expect that piece of paper (regardless from where) to be the golden ticket to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. Life ain't a fantasy, at least not for the majority.

This thread started off with someone who just wanted to know what to expect upon graduating from SIM-UOL. Lets just keep it at that, to provide accurate information where possible, to help people know what is the realistic salary to expect/negotiate for their first job. Didn't we all went through the same issue, regardless where we are from? In this troubling time, with many foreigners fighting to work in Singapore, staying united as one is more important than petty dispute amongst ourselves.

Lastly, as with all forums, please take information here with a pinch of salt, for your own internal reference.

Market reality is reality. Blaming Singapore culture, companies only recognize brand, saying by right should not differentiate etc. is senseless talk.

The market is the market. It does not care what you & I think "should" be the correct way.

yes, its all about branding.

in life, thats all its about isnt it? thats the reason why people can pay $$ for a piece of paper from sim, even with the knowledge that it carries no value.

people from sims are more brand conscious than others - precisely why they chose to go to sim.

if i tell you a wallet from J leather goods is the same quality as a Bottega, and the same price, how many would choose the unknown brand over the Bottega?

That's an illusion.

Ppl without degree can only hold top management positions in SMEs.

Keep dreaming.

Sinkie pwn sinkie. That's what's all are good at.
Continue at it while degree mills occupy most of your high paying jobs.

That's not true. One of the reasons why people without degree can hold top management positions in MNCs is due to the fact that:

1) Singapore was a developing country then, so there aren't alot of graduates
2) Climb up due to sheer experience and network across the industry

Now tell me. If you are a boss of a big company, would you rather have someone with just a paper to show, or someone that has tonnes of experience AND network across the industry?

Of course its pretty hard nowadays, seeing as it is so easy to get a degree now. But back then, it wasn't the norm.

This is all good in theory, but could you cite actual linkedin examples of non degree holders who are holding top management positions in prominent MNCs?

And I mean real proper MNCs like S&P 500 or FTSE 100 types, not companies setup by your local towkay with a few offices outside of Singapore. And by top management I assume we are talking about real c-suite execs, not some junior manager with inflated director/vp title.

ok who? pls share

Sigh. Ignorant people. Whateva happen to Bill Gates, Mark Zukerberg, Mark Cuban, and Michael Dell?

No wonder we are all losing out to foreigners in our fight for jobs. No zeal, no passion, no risk for appetite, and go-by-the-book. SOP for everything, unable to think beyond the norm, unable to manage change. Rigid mindset.

I reiterate, these were all in the past whereby it was easier to succeed and climb up. Let me stress again that such a phenomenon would be rare today. But not impossible.

Please, not the same old tired arguments about maverick entrepreneurs again.

To recap, your claim earlier was that big mncs will hire/promote someone without a degree to a top management position as long as he is more experienced or has good network. My challenge to you was if it were really that common, anyone could have easily found a number of linkedin profiles to prove the point. Instead of furnishing evidence to advance the debate, you went into yet another round of bantless ranting against the so called Singaporean mentality.

Let me reiterate again – show us evidence of the linkedin profiles exhibiting the following traits you claim earlier:

1) Occupies a top management position in a prominent MNC
2) Education level below degree
3) Promoted / hired because of experience and network

Where is the evidence?

For e.g. I work in Caterpillar. The top management team in my company can be found here: ://.caterpillar.com/en/company/governance/officers.html None of them are lowly educated, in fact some of them are holding prominent positions in academia affiliated networks and organizations. All I need is for you to come up with proper evidence to back up your claims, not polemics or rhetorical questions.

Here's one although this was some years back. IIRC he is trained as a butcher before rising up the ranks. Of course these are exceptions to the rule and not every blue collard worker can rise up the ranks, but since you asked for evidence here's one.

I think the CEO of SATS pre-2004 era also rose up the ranks at SIA from rank and file.


s://.sats.com.sg/InvestorRelations/FinancialReporting/AnnualReports1/0910_AnnualReport.pdf

Page 29:

5. Robert Burnett, 46
Mr Burnett is Chief Executive Officer, UK. He oversees and is responsible for the performance of Daniels Chilled Foods Limited, International Cuisine Limited and Farmhouse Fare Limited. He has been the Chief Executive Officer of Daniels Chilled
Foods since July 2002. Prior to that, he had held various senior general management appointments with Albert Fisher Plc. Mr Burnett sits on the Boards of SATS’ subsidiaries in the UK. He holds a Higher National Diploma in Business Studies from the Aberdeen College of Commerce (UK).

I love it when people use these examples.

Nothing like picking out a few people who are successful in life without a proper education, then imagining you can be like them. That's 4 people out of 7 billion people.

Even Bill Gates said he wouldn't hire someone without a degree. Read it for yourself: ://.gatesnotes.com/Education/11-Million-College-Grads

come on.

these guys QUALIFIED for uni.

gates/zukerberg/dell were all undergrads are prestigious schools - gates and zukererg being harvard. they dropped out becuase they were on to something. cuban graduated.

pls dont compare sims with these guys. people from sims didnt qualify for a university, which is why they ended up doing a course in sim - a course provider. not a university.

dont be so ignorant. but then again, thats the reason why you ended up in sim perhaps

A number of them like to use examples of founders of Microsoft, facebook etc as proof that without a degree one can succeed exceedingly much in life. I say all these are not good examples as these very top achievers are ivy league caliber students who dropped out of college by choice.

How many of our top students per cohort can enter undergrad program at Havard, MIT, Wharton, Yale, Columbia?

friends, whatever la. so what if SIM or local unis? later ivy leagues come we can only put finger to our lips. why keep comparing? local uni doesnt guarantee you success, but many do. going private uni doesnt mean you cant compete with the ivy leagues, but not many do. but then, who cares what statistics show? if you succeed at your own definition, then that's good enough. why keep comparing? putting people down will make you climb the ladder faster meh? citing those successful college dropouts will make you one of them meh? why are you guys so concerned about how successful/lousy others are? what are the hidden benefits? can share?

Hello... call you to cite example of MNC with top management position filled by a non-degree you cite a "CEO" of a subsidiary of SATS which was only up to recently in turn a subsidiary of SIA. Does this Daniels Chilled Food sound like a MNC to you?

Please don't try the same old word play tricks saying as long as companies got office in > 1 country = MNC. You & I & everyone else on this forum jolly well know when we talk about MNCs, we are not talking about some small UK subsidiary of SATs. Also who would consider the likes of SATs a MNC in the true sense of the word in the 1st place?

This is just playing lingual gymnastics arguing for the sake of arguing.

sats is consider a medium size glc with very stat board culture...

personally i never hear of any sg local that can climb up to top mgt of a big mnc irregardless of degree or not. the indians from india are much better at playing mnc politics. even the well known janet ang from nus is only a local gm of ibm and definitely not consider top mgt level.

This is a C-level position and far higher than any position you would ever achieve in your sorry life. Sats is a $1.7b company and of course there are bigger MNCs out there. I'd like to see your arrogant ass try to even get near to a Deputy GM/MD/CEO in one of their subsidiaries you snob.

Anyway you asked for an example so here it is.

I know of 2 local GLC Group CEOs who were C-level executives in global MNCs before taking up their posts.

Unfortunately most of our scholars and talents go into the civil service hence the public sector (big GLCs) have to draw from the foreign talent pool. It is sad that even DBS can't find a true blue sinkie to lead the company.

Sats later sold Daniels Group for $230m. While definitely not in the league of Shell or Apple or Google it is no small change and still relevant to our discussion.


://.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9QJFSTO2.htm

Just for the benefit those people trying to use smoke and mirrors to somehow elevate the worth of an SIM degree, here are the educational pedigrees of the "street smart" high school dropouts

Bill Gates: High school graduate with SAT score of 1590 out of 1600 --> Havard (majored in pre-law) --> programming

Mark Zuckerberg: High school acheiver (captain of fencing team, earned a classics diploma) --> Harvard --> programming

Mark Cuban: University of Pittsburg --> IU Bloomington B-school

Michael Dell: High school --> University of Texas (pre-Med) --> businessman


How about

Your average SIM student --> ???

Come on, get real. This Dainel's food is only worth $230m and is certainly NOT MNC calibre. Don't try to smoke your way out when you can't even cite ONE concrete example to back up your bombastic claim.

To bring some perspective with some of our local brands, here are the market values of a few:

1) M1 - $2,600m
2) Eu Yan Sang - $450m
3) Chip Eng Seng - $450m
4) Low Keng Huat - $450m
5) Sheng Siong - $1,300m
6) Challenger - $170m

When was the last time you heard someone from Sheng Siong or M1 claim they work in a MNC? $1.7B might sound big to normal people like us on a personal level, but nobody would consider this sort of size MNC in any common financial understanding of the word.

I see you are getting all emotional and now displaying gratuitous belligerence when you have clearly failed to even cite ONE single proper example to justify your outlandish claims.

Let's just leave it at that. People can look at the facts and make reasonable conclusions of their own.

Never quite relate how a private uni student draws inspiration from these guys. I mean all of them made it big through entrepreneurship and AFAIK most private uni grads are trying to look for jobs in big mncs/banks. Their paths couldn't have been more different.

SIA is an MNC. Sats is not.

This guy is not even the CEO of Sats. He is the CEO of a few subsidaries of Sats.

Thats just a CEO of a couple of SMEs and he no longer even holds the position.

Your example got 0 points and the fact remains that there is no non-degree holder in top management positions in prominent MNCs today.

Regardless of the imaginations of SIMbians.

Sorry, just couldn't resist chipping in on this.

Apple market cap is $680b compare to Daniels $0.23b, we are talking about a nearly 300,000% difference here.

You might as well say when it comes to career progression although your Toa Payoh ah beng handphone shop not in the league of Singtel but is still relevant to the discussion.

Jeezzz.... some folks here really have no sense of proportion.

SIMbians cannot even get their finance 101 correct.... still want to boast of being street smart and bulls**t that their business degree just as good as local uni.

Instead of talking, why not you local graduates post your pay slip, and I'll post mine. If course including stats that matters, like age, years of experience, etc. We'll see who's doing better. Lol. I may not be in the top 15% earners for my age, but still convinced enough that most of the local graduates are paid less than me. So, save your critics and show some digits.

Nobody really cares about insurance agents / MLMers / financial consultants / private bankers / real estate agents / forex workshop conductors.

You might earn more, but you got 0 respect.

People here are having a serious discussion on the limitations and opportunities of career progression in MNC space with diploma or private degree certification and here you are contributing nothing to the discourse and more interested in boasting how much money you make.

Grow up, nobody is interested in participating in your my-payslip-is-better-than-your-payslip p*nis contest.

://.londoninternational.ac.uk/community/londonconnection/articles/features/level-meltdown-oxford-scholar


Local Uni graduates??? comments???