it is actually very disappointing to know that people from the tech side are jumping ship to finance.

have people really lost interest in science and engineering? given california good credentials and opportunity offered to him(studying in a college in silicon valley virturally gives one all the opportunites that they can crave for if they want to be involved in tech industry.) and there is another member who said that he got stuck at senior researcher level.

im just a student, and its kind of depressing to see this. is a tech career such a monetary unrewarding one, till the extent u prolly have a problem keeping ur job or have advancement?

@California

I'm still too lazy to register, so pardon me. I wouldn't worry about trying to convince some people here. Many have very rigid views, better yet formed, in spite of having very little knowledge about the subject matter. Its interesting how many of our countrymen hold such a low opinion of what opportunities Sg holds for them. However, what you've talked about so far not just coincides with what I know but is similar to the path I've taken. I'm surprised how the conversation came to the type of girls that you'd get in the bay area vs. Sg. Hahaha, no comment. As I said earlier, different people, different priorities, different perspectives.

In regards to your "accent", Lol, the very fact that you write good English should eliminate some doubt (though I must say our American counterparts have grammar issues themselves).

@ Unregistered, 11:43 PM

You'd be surprised. Yes, most Sgns who attended an overseas college can't do a believable "American" accent (in fact many sound terrible when they try), but there are some "English-educated" who can, not bcz they are faking it but it grows on you after you spend a few years there. Personally, I enjoyed the priceless stares my American friends gave me whenever I broke out into heavy Singlish on the phone after just talking to them in English. They understand and yet they don't. A lot assume I'm a citizen and its not difficult bcz the US has such a great melting pot of cultures depending on where you're at. I often find it hard to tell myself.

nope, i'm not talking about accent at all, I'm talking about the way we speak, the choice of words, our sentence structures. It's not about good English, but how you use it. Americans use a very distinctive style, you know it when you hear it or read it. California here, on the other hand, uses the style of an educated native Singaporean, a Singaporean nonetheless.

What is this distinctive style that Americans use? Pray elaborate.

Well, what you said is possible but I can't be certain either way. The irony is that I've corrected quite a bit of "American" grammar that I might be able catch on to distinctive "American" grammatical mistakes, but since he writes pretty well, its a lot harder for me. Furthermore, if you've been to some places in the US like Puerto Rico, the language/sentence structure can be so different (yes, an extreme example). You could look out for catch phrases like "All set", "on the same page", or even heavier (ghetto) slang "tripping". Then again, what do I know, I'm not an English major (or in law school) much less an expert in American English. Sorry, but I can't tell basically, if I had met him in person, I'd have a better chance at deciphering his mannerisms.

What he does talk about in regards to engineering in the US and returning to Sg seems mostly accurate. It could be personal bias bcz I went down a similar trail but at the very least it does resonate with the experiences I've had. If someone came to me, very interested in doing engineering and working in the US, I doubt my advice would significantly differ from his - Do an EECS degree in Cali and find a comfortable job in Silicon Valley. That's about the best way to maximize the likelihood of attaining his/her dream/goals. Of course, in regards to the purchasing power and salary comparisons between different fields in SG/US, its complicated and very "case-by-case", bound to have disagreements aplenty.

Like I said, you know it when you hear it or when you read it. There's nothing much I can do to open your eyes if you've always been a frog in the well.

I'm not doubting what he said at all. Too many Singaporeans today hop on the "intellectual" bandwagon of being anti-Singapore without having even spent an extended period of time overseas, studied there, made international friends, much less be able to compare job opportunities between the U.S. and Singapore. There are many things to like about America, but there're also many things the Singaporean lifestyle that beats America and other places.

Looks like I've just called your bluff.

Remember to send me a postcard on your virgin flight out of Singapore.

Non sequitur

It's more complicated than that. There is another group that doesn't dispute California's authenticity, but doesn't trust his conclusions i.e., he is deluding himself into believing that he is better off in Singapore to justify not making it in Silicon Valley. It's OK to help himself heal mentally, but not so good when giving advice to the majority who may not have his privileges - a rich family living in private housing with flashy cars

"Non sequitur" simi?

Beware this is a *Long* read:

I mentioned earlier to California that I might take a stab at evaluating working in SG vs. US as a fresh graduate. I'll try to stick to what is more common and perhaps in some ways what was applicable to me (so it may not be completely applicable to California’s situation). Please take note that both the US and SG have very different systems and you may have different priorities as well. My intention would be geared towards a Sgn with a longer term goal of eventually settling in SG and I’ve also used slightly higher but very possible salary estimates, should you come from a top graduate school, entering the “right” field. Where there is uncertainty, I will try to take a conservative estimate (ie, less $). I admit that I am discounting non-financial motivations for staying in the US or returning to SG (You might loathe/love having to live with your parents, for whatever reasons). Here's what I came up with:

Assume that you draw 75K USD/annum and receive a 5K USD signing-on/relocation/etc bonus. After subtracting tax exemption for single, unmarried individuals (5.8K) and applying the different tax rates across each relevant tax bracket (10% to 8.5K, next 15% to 34.5K, finally 25% onwards till 74.2K) you’ll be liable for 14,765 USD in federal taxes (according to the IRS website calculator, its actually estimated at a lower 13,675 USD for FY2011).

Next, we have state tax, this varies usually between 3-5% for flat rate taxes (I’ll use 5% for our purposes - 4K ). Quite a few places like California have a progressive structure, and for the current pay scale, you’ll be liable for 6% roughly in Cali using 2010 tables (which is 4.8K – much lower than I’ve expected, if I’m wrong please feel free to alter your calculations). You might also have other miscellaneous taxes but I believe they should be less significant.

Last, we have social security (SS) and Medicare (crucially, I believe, as a H1B/H1B1 work permit holder, you will not be entitled to any such benefits, lest you get a green card/citizenship, hence this is as good as tax). Employee contribution for SS was reduced to 4.2% from 6.2% ($3360) this year, Medi stays the same at 1.45% ($1160).

Thus, your take-home pay is (80 – 14.675 – 4 – 3.36)K USD = 56,805 USD (29% taxes paid in total) = 69780 SGD (using 1USD to 1.23SGD, a word of caution, this may not remain the same when one returns to SG, not to mention other transaction/relocation charges).

That was the “easy” part. Now comes the difficult part – would you consider rent and car expenses/depreciation (10-18K & 1-3K respectively) as key factors when comparing US to SG? If you do, what amount to use? Say we run with 15K combined (there are however ways to reduce it to 10K such as sharing an apartment and buying a cheaper car, being located in a less fancy area, etc), thus we have ~42K USD = ~51K SGD/annum. You could try and purchase an apartment but you will lose out on the mortgage liabilities (I’m assuming you’re cash poor), not to mention increased property risks (what if you can’t find a buyer?). But if you really (and I mean really) know what you’re doing, it is a possible avenue to explore. I’m motivated more by necessity - needing a car to get to work, needing to pay rent for a roof over my head, over anything else. How much you would price the premium of not living with your parents or not having to use public transport is entirely up to you. I’m not here to tell you how you should feel.

Now let’s look at it from the SG end. Assume that you draw 4K SGD/Month and 4K bonus (52K SGD total). You will contribute 10.4K to CPF (20%), while your employer contributes 8.06K (15.5%). The breakdown for Medisave, Special and Ordinary is 3.69K, 2.63K and 12.13K respectively. You will thus have 39.1K tax liable income. Using our tax brackets ($350 + 5.5c for every dollar over 30K up to 40K), you will only pay 851 SGD in taxes. This means in one year, you will take home 40.75K and accumulate 18.46K in CPF, for a total of 59.21K. Now, unlike in the US, you will have “limited” access to your CPF eventually, hence I have taken the liberty of not completely striking it off as a “tax” per say. SS/Medi conversely will essentially be worthless to you unless you stay in the US on a permanent basis.

Looking at the general numbers once again based on our assumptions... In the US, you generate 70K SGD w/o rent/car, 51K SGD w rent/car. In SG, you generate 41K SGD w/o CPF, 59K SGD w CPF. There are still other issues not mentioned - not locking up your $$ in CPF in SG (an astute investor should outperform CPF returns), furniture/household upkeep in the US, etc etc which can affect your final analysis to a measureable extent. My opinion is that the US 80K/annum option would marginally beat the SG 4K/month option using current circumstances (based on my priorities). But of course changes to US laws such as returning SS back to 6.2% can tilt things back. Try to see if you can obtain a margin of safety, ie, if you seem to only be able to secure 65K USD/annum (40K SGD w rent/car) undergrad Engineering positions in the US, and seem a shoo-in for a 4K SGD/month finance/consulting sector position in SG, then it is likely that you might want to go with the latter (if you were in my shoes).

Ultimately, what might be more important is your long term goals/prospects. Are you planning to stay in the US indefinitely? Are you planning to remain an engineer your life (US/SG)? Are you willing to take a pay cut when/if you choose to return to SG as an engineer? The truth is that there are a lot of grey areas and I hope this can serve as a rough guide to others who are weighing their options. I'm exhausted.

Don't understand why you are so long winded. From your calculations, you have S$3,187 in disposable income after taxes. Forget CPF. Most young people don't care about something they get 35 years later.

Using the California paycheck calculator, I get USD4,469 or S$5,582 in paycheck, tax withholding included. You earn almost double in California.

To me there is no comparison, when cars are 5-6 times more expensive in Singapore and condos have hit $1,000psf even in outlying areas.

You must be nuts to think anything else.

Singapore is good for day-to-day life, food, travel locally. Maybe even medical expenses are lower.

But, in the long run, u need a car and a house. Both these things are overpriced and more than eat all or more of what u save in other aspects.

I am an engineer who started from scratch with a graduate degree. I dont work in Singapore ritenow. But I know that once I factor in car, house and the crowd in Singapore, it loses its attraction. On top, there are not many engineering positions unless u get in Finance sector which pay well. Despite this, I feel that I enjoy my day-2-day life in Singapore more with good food, entertainment, etc.

But if u see why most expats leave Singapore for Aus or the West, its mainly bcus Singapore cant compete on financial grounds. Even though life wise , it suits chinese and indians more.

Unless, Property prices become more affordable and the crowd is reduced, Singapore cant be compared to many other places. And , does any one u see that happening. I dont.

Why? To ensure that people will not misconstrue my posts, which you still evidently did. No comparison? If you read the first paragraph, I mentioned I was gearing my analysis for a person who would *still* face those high car/housing prices bcz of his/her long term intention to eventually return to SG. The reason for not simply quoting paycheckcity.com is to allow someone who has never done such an analysis to understand the nuances between the US SS/Medicare tax vs. the SG CPF system. If you choose to remain permanently in the US your life, then SS/Medi will come into play and you have to re-balance your comparison (as well as re-evaluate purchasing power) bcz they are no longer simply govt. "taxes" that only removes $$ from your pay. Take home pay may be crucial but it is not everything and that is the over-sight one invites if one uses a paycheck website without really understanding what all these terms mean.

You may choose to ignore CPF, that's up to you. I don't know what most other young people think but I'm not about to present a half-baked comparison by ignoring selective aspects bcz of my own personal bias. In fact, I'd prefer to put everything out there for each person to judge for themselves based on their ideals and goals. You must be nuts to think that others must only share your views, we're not talking about 1+1 here.

cont'd...

To clarify further, "I'd prefer to put everything out there for each person to evaluate their *own* circumstances for themselves based on their ideals and goals. " Not everyone receives 80K USD/annum offers or gets to work in a $4-8K/month finance position back home.

I understand that there are people who so strongly believe Singapore is a horrid place to be with no opportunities; where you're doomed for failure regardless of how smart/hard working you are -- it's fine. The sad part is, even if they win (the debate), they lose (stuck in a country they believe to be terrible). But again, it just gives an upper hand to those who can spot and exploit the opportunities that do exist. In a way, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. So believe whatever it is that you want and you'll be right :)

It's nothing new for people to go the engineering (undergrad) -> work in finance (then possibly MBA) route. Banks LOVE the quantitative skills and structured thought process of engineers. And from a biased point of view, I find it easier to teach an engineer finance than a business major engineering (or at least the highly quantitative math skills). That aside, if you really love engineering you can definitely find success in it, but the relative ease of such success will vary depending on location, type of engineering, personality, etc.

Tech careers can be very rewarding, as you can see how many young guns are living the big life nowadays (though don't assume this to be the norm). For the average joe, a career in tech will at least give you a good, stable pay and comfortable life (though much more so in Silicon Valley than in Singapore, but it can be done). And at least compared to finance, I don't think engineers have much of a problem keeping their jobs :P

Please don't take my story to mean that I lost interest in, think less of, or 'gave up' on engineering. I have too many unique and personal circumstances to really give a good comparison, and one of the deciding factors for me was that Singapore is a finance hub, not a tech hub. I still believe tech is an awesome career path and will never really close the door on those opportunities in the future, regardless of what sector or job I'm in. IMHO, do what you want, and do it well. People can make ridiculous amounts of money doing the most obscure things, as long as they have the passion (and of course skill) to excel at it and the insight and vision to monetize it.

First off, I don't know why people are assuming that I 'didn't make it' in Silicon Valley. Yes, I had to come back and do NS, but my company is as strong as ever and I always have the option of going back (and not just to the company, there are various others who still contact me, checking when I'll change my mind and go back). Plus I have my stake in the company so I'll still 'make it' if we succeed regardless of my location. Staying here was a choice, and it's a choice that I continue to make every day. Regardless, even if I were to be deluding myself into thinking I'm better off here, I'd rather be happy and carefree than live in regret and pessimism. I'm lovin' it here, but the second I think the US holds considerably better long-term opportunities, I'll be on the next flight out ;)

That aside, I'll address your latter point, which I feel is very valid. The last thing I want to do to is to give advice that is not sound / give a false sense of hope / encourage people to take unnecessary risks with little upside. This is why I've always qualified my opinions with cautionary disclaimers:
We don't need to split hairs over calculations, the point is that the pay gap isn't as big as many are led to believe (myself included, when I first came back). I'd also like to point out that we are comparing starting salary, but in the long run I believe a talented individual can quickly overcome the pay inequality. For one, the taxes are much much lower here, and the more you make, the more it affects you (not to mention no capital gains tax). At your starting salaries, the tax advantage Singaporeans enjoy is not as apparent; but after you really start to build your career, it becomes much clearer.

Secondly, I believe you can really grow your salary much faster and higher in Singapore than in the US (again, with regards to those 'high flyers'). In the US, even if you get a high $100k p.a. starting pay as a graduate, in 5-10 years you're probably looking at $125-150k, and you'll probably 'peak' at about $200k. You start high, but your growth rate slows over time. This is if you're really good -- $100k a year is already a very high salary in the US regardless of age. In Singapore, I see smart people doubling their salaries within 1-2 years. Though this may still be 'lower' than the $100k p.a. (depending on how you want to calculate it), it's possible to keep a similar momentum and continue to grow your pay at a substantial rate (couple this with the tax rate and you've really got something). Within a few years you can surpass what you would have drawn in the US (if you hadn't already), and after that you have the potential to really widen the gap. I think numbers speak louder than words, so just refer to the salary.sg articles on Singapore's mean vs. median salary -- it's quite absurd IMO. The rich are really ridiculously rich. So once again, I'll say that if you want to live an average, comfortable life, go ahead and migrate. But if you're really shooting for the stars, there's some very nice advantages here~

Keke. Actually, the keyboard heroes here are more than likely extremely successful and rich chaps who are more or less retired and so bored that they like giving the padawans like you some grief.

California, after this bit of nonsense, I'm sure you didn't go to Stanford. Even Cal is a stretch. Perhaps it was University of San Francisco :)

Singapore does not compare to NY or Boston (for fund management) as a financial center by any stretch of the imagination. Bigger deals go down there and in finance you compete with the best in the world. As Frankie said about New York, "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere".

Whether you are in IB, CF or a sellside analyst, you can earn many many times in the US what you could possibly earn in Singapore. You also work on more complex deals with much smarter people. It is the experience doing the complex deals that builds your value.

The only truth you have is that because Singapore's tax rate is low, if you earn A LOT of money, you can save at a very high rate. But don't you think the Bulge Bracket IBs have figured this out already an apply "tax equivalence" to their employees across their offices. Low level front office and back office people are paid differently in NY and Singapore. High Level front office people are paid largely on the revenue they bring in and if you are in NY, you will bring in far more revenue as it is a vastly bigger market than the red dot. Top level investment bankers adjust their residence for the best tax treatment, but they all work in NY.

For talented Singaporeans going to top US Universities, the best option is to cut your teeth in New York or London and when you have been promoted to a senior level and have acquired the experience of a top flight investment banker, THEN move to Singapore. That is the fastest way to reach the upper echelons of Singapore investment banking. Understandably, there was a recession and unemployment is high, but investment banking in the U.S. is coming back strong and it would be wise to get in now.

You know what, I agree with you for the most part. However, for the record I never compared Singapore to NY or Boston for fund management; as I've stated my experiences have been in California in tech, and I'll readily admit you're probably in a better position to comment on the other two cities with regards to finance. I've only said that Singapore is a finance hub (which it is) and not a tech hub (which it's not), which is not the same as saying it's the finance hub of the world. That said, you're right -- if you wanna go huge in finance, New York is a great place (perhaps the best place) to be. In fact, all the top brass of my company are there, and it's where the big decisions are made.

I also agree that you can probably find more lucrative and complex deals there. I'm not sure if I'll go as far as saying that those doing finance in New York are 'much smarter' than their Singaporean counterparts per-say (moreso if you want to go by pure book-smarts), but for the sake of argument I'll concede this point as well. I will say that in my opinion, they're definitely more aggressive and adventurous by nature in their business dealings, which can be a very good thing if it turns out well in the end. Again, I can't comment from firsthand experience, but from what I hear from friends and family working in NY finance (as well as other publications/sites/articles) the pay for these positions is pretty meager to average for the first few years; and thats if you manage to stick it out. For two people of similar qualifications, the pay in NY may be a bit higher, but I wouldn't agree with 'many many times' the salary, and this isn't even taking into account taxes and the sky-high rent.

I don't have enough personal data to make a stance on the tax-equivalence salaries across different offices, but comparing the entry-mid level pays of my friends and schoolmates across the world, it doesn't affect it much (from what I've seen). If anything, I'd say it's more of an inherent comparison to the local 'market rate' (why would a company want to pay more than is necessary to hire and keep the caliber of talent that they want?) - which of course takes into account tax / etc by nature - rather than a conscious evaluation of payscale by country according to taxes.

I'll once again agree that New York is a great place for finance full of smart and ambitious people. However, you have to also recognize that working there means you're also competing with the best and that you'll always be fighting for your spot / job / whatever. I've seen quite a few high flyers screw up bigtime here and lose their jobs, only to be given comparable or even higher offers immediately by competing firms. I'll admit I'm not qualified to say whether this is the norm or not, but I can definitely see the lack of competition once you get into the higher echelons here.

I completely agree with your last statement (for talented Singaporeans to go to top US universities and grind it out in NY / London, establish yourself and build a name then return to really reap the benefits). It's not too far off from what I advised, for those who have the chance; and if you think you can cut it, go for it by all means! But I have to warn that some Singaporeans may not be able to adapt to the ambitious in-your-face atmosphere and culture inherent to these cities and the people that they'll be up against.

California, I have been reading your posts and you have come across as sincere and forthright, to the extent of even registering a User Name to support your authenticity.

Unfortunately, you are dealing with someone (possibly more than one person although I suspect there is only one) who is still in a state of denial.

The fact that you "grew up in the US, attended a top university" and got a "$6k +" per month job offer here instead of at "$60 k +" per month (even lower than the SMU graduates that he so despised) means that either your authenticity must be demolished, or his state of denial.

Unfortunately, sincere and forthright doesn't mean right. You may mean the best but be completely wrong. It also appears that he has stretched the definition of equivalence between Singapore and California since his situation involves rich parents with lots of assets. Anyone who disagrees has a right to express it here. California is a young man feeling his way around his first job. He may have headed the wrong way, but he seems happy - at least for now.

I'll second that. In fact, it seems most of the disapproval stems from failing to understand the choices available to California when he made the decision (requiring him to make a repeated response to what was clearly an erroneous assumption of what Cali was stating) or an insistence that only one view of "equivalence" is valid when there are really too many factors to account or discount. In any case, Cali, I think you've explained yourself well enough for others to decide based on their circumstances. No need to waste more time reasoning your way out of blind antagonism.

Are you answering your own post?

No (I'm 06:45 & the one who detailed the US/SG tax system differences earlier). Why? You can't believe that more than one person disagrees with you? So much for the "right to express" disagreement lol. I've better things to do than masquerade as another poster.

Sorry, I meant 06:54pm

I'm confused. If you want any credibility, you should register a nick.

I'm glad you mostly agree. However on the above point, I'd also suggest that a S$6K employee of a Singapore-based investment bank isn't able to judge whether people in NY make many many times more than in Singapore....

Singaporeans can make it in bulge bracket investment banks. Singaporeans head major divisions of BB investment banks. If you think this way, you are unlikely to make it.

You realise the irony of that statement, no? Anyway, I probably should have done so earlier. I don't have much to add anymore, unless someone has further questions on what I mentioned earlier, so I'm done for the time being. Have a good day.

There is no irony at all. I'm just questioning because I'm doubtful. You on the other hand are declaring and seconding belief! ... and then chickening out when challenged

Thanks for the support. I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone or win any sort of internet debate, and I really have nothing to gain personally from convincing people one way or another. In fact, it would probably be to my benefit if more people disagree with my views (and thus won't even bother looking / going for the opportunities that do exist). Nonetheless, my motive is to give another point of view to those who are looking for something other than 'Singapore sucks, go overseas if you wanna do well'. At the very least, I hope people will at least consider what I'm saying and take it as food for thought.

I agree, having good motives doesn't mean I am right. I never claimed that my views and opinions were the absolute, unquestionable truth that encompassed every person and situation. If I ever gave anyone that impression then I sincerely apologize - I've tried my best to make it clear that I am only speaking from the experiences of myself, friends, and family as well as qualify almost every statement that I make with caveats that it does not apply to everyone. I welcome contrary opinions and believe that the readers (as well as myself) will benefit from the differing viewpoints rather than blindly believing what a single person says.

On a personal note, I never based any of my opinions or advice around socio-economic status. That bit about cars / money / etc was only in response to a very specific statement that only concerned me and my situation, I didn't leverage this aspect to support what I've said about anything else. I agree that I am young and feeling my way around my first (second?) job - I'm not an expert or know-it-all by any means. Perhaps I went the wrong way, perhaps I made the right choice - there is really no way of telling. And if I ever cease to be happy with the decisions I have made, it's never too late to turn back.

First off, my firm is not Singapore based nor is it an investment bank. It's a totally global financial company (in fact, the HQ is in New York) who is the commanding leader in it's field by a huge margin. But that really isn't the point..

Secondly, I'm not stating my views from the perspective of a "S$6k employee of a Singapore-based investment bank" (as above, I'm not). I'm stating my views as someone who has numerous friends and family who are working in the top finance / consulting / etc companies in New York/London/Singapore/etc in addition to having been offered some of these positions and salaries personally. On top of direct class/course mates from university, the big schools have amazing alumni networks all around the world in all different industries, and we all talk and share our experiences and numbers to give each other a better perspective. Lastly, I've read sufficient books / articles / sites on the different positions, companies, industries, and locations (glassdoor.com is a pretty nifty one) to ensure that I'm not making naive and unqualified claims.

Let's take 'many many times' to equal 3x or more (though it's very debate-able whether or not 3 even counts as 'many many', I'd think it would be something more like 10x). Let's also assume that the good financial companies pay around $40-50k for their average fresh-grad analyst hires. This would imply their counterparts (average new analyst hires in good financial companies) in in New York make $120-150k? (for the sake of simplicity, we let tax and exchange rate cancel out, though this is in favor of the US). I think $120-150k is a pretty far stretch for an average fresh grad, from past experiences and interactions the number should be closer to $60-80k. Of course, you may be referring to the higher levels, but the disparity still isn't as large (again, for people of comparable positions / background / etc), unless you want to go to the CEO / etc level, which is very hard to compare and isn't too relevant for the vast majority of people. I understand we have made a lot of assumptions here (almost all have been in favor of your claim), so if you would like to counter with your own examples / assumptions then by all means, please do (I want to add that I am not looking to argue with you, or anyone else for that matter. I'm simply opening the floor to a constructive debate where we can state our opinions in an educational manner. As previously stated, this will be to the benefit of the reader and as well as give ourselves an opportunity to understand other points of view).

Bulge bracket investment banks in New York have a pretty standard package for graduates. It used to be USD100K base, but has risen to about USD120K after the global financial crisis because salaries were adjusted upwards to compensate for lower bonuses (required by the Fed, which now regulates the investment banks turned commercial banks). For graduates, bonus is usually fixed for the first one-two years and then varies on performance when you move from graduate to Associate. It's typically USD100K as well, so if you are starting at a bulge bracket investment bank in NY, expect USD220K for the first two years. After that, if you survive (about 10-20% do), you can finally make some serious money. However, entry into BB in New York is very competitive, even if you are an Ivy graduate.

Summer Interns at Goldman Sachs in New York are paid USD6,000+ pm. Its similar for the other BB IBs. Ask around.

Come to think of it, starting base salaries for graduates at New York investment banks 30 years ago were already about S$80K. Wonder how I know :)

the two of you need to stop pissing on each other over the salary issue; it is becoming embarassing.

both of you are right and wrong at the same time.

typical analyst package (ie undergrad with no experience, and in some cases master/phd with no experience) is as what California says: in the realm of 50-70k base, 10k-20k sign on plus relocation, and another 30-50k for the first full year bonus (ie end of 1.5Y; first bonus is a stub paid for 5-6months of service). So total package for first full year is around 80-120k, excluding sign on.

typical associate package (master with experience or phd without experience) is around 100-120k base plus 20-30k sign-on plus relocation (in my good times, i got 50k) and another 50-70k for full year bonus. So the package is around 150-190k. 220k is on the high side that i would cover unlikely but not impossible. after all, bonus is at the discretion of your boss, and if he likes you (for your formal or informal work), bonus can be higher than usual.

and yes, i am the interviewer of numeorus super day interviews, and have particpated in too many meaningless selection processes that follow the super day. And yes, i work for an ib in nyc that is considered bb.

Now, move on.

My experience is specifically, with Goldman, CS and Deutsche. This is definitely NOT what an analyst graduating from a top school like Wharton, Harvard, Princeton or Yale would expect. If you offered a total of 80-120K to them to work in New York City, they would laugh at you. Perhaps your firm might be "considered BB" by you, but not not by those applying from the top schools.

In any case, I don't think California was estimating based on BB Investment Banks, but a regular financial services firm.

The fact that you participate in super day interviews doesn't mean you know exactly what is being offered to whom and what the budgets are. Only someone who runs a unit will.

Guys, there is no need to argue. The graduate salaries are published by the Universities and available on the internet.

From what I can see, the mean first year salary for a fresh Stanford MBA Grad in the Class of 2010 working in the Northeast (i.e., New York City) is $130,741. His mean signing bonus was $31,250 and his other mean guaranteed compensation was $133,375. So the mean total comp was $295,366. Phew! The median was $265,000.

However, most chose to work in the West (LA, SFO), and the mean total compensation was $197,830. Looks like there is a $100K difference between the West and the Northeast!

But aren't you actually saying that California is wrong because he estimated $60-80K and you are estimating $80-120K? Also, when I add up your numbers, you seem to be estimating $90-$140K rather than $80-120K that is 70+20+50 = 140

Hi, I'm a 2010 grad from Wharton's undergraduate program and will be working in New York. I would say that most of us (including me) got jobs through on-campus recruitment. The Bulge Bracket offers this year for me and my fellow graduates were about $80-90K and a $20-30K signon bonus as a generalist analyst. I'm told they were higher than last year by Wharton's career placement office (which is a really fantastic organisation). I'm told that some of the top students like the valedictorian were able to get offers over $100K. There was a guaranteed minimum bonus in some of our offers, but most of us expect to get more - at least 6-12 months for our first bonus because we are going to work our asses off. The guys who went to the boutiques, hedge funds and smaller firms got a little less at $40-70K.

I'm the poster who suggested that investment bankers in NY earn "many many times" what they do in Singapore.

I was talking in general. Not about newbie first year graduates! If you read my post carefully, you will see that I said that the experience you get in NY working on large deals is what builds your value... into many many times the compensation you could make in Singapore.

stop being a twit. i worked or work for two of the 3 firms you mentioned. And base compensation for the analyst program is fixed regardless of where you graduate. And you don't need to run a unit to decide analyst pay because it comes from a common pool.

i don't think you know what you are talking about, or at least, i'm sure you have very limited, probably no, first-hand experience, and are probably arguing on hearsay.

120k for a fresh grad is a dream, even in nyc, where the median family salary is around 60-80k.

get a life, and shut up already.