law is prestige driven. even many years into practice, you will be judged at face value based on whether you practice at a "top ranked" firm or not, or whether you come from a "top law school" or not. this is far from unique to singapore. in the UK, if you will be judged just as harshly if studied in a non-russell group/oxbridge law school; in the US, if you're not from the T14 law schools, big law firms will hardly take a second look at you.

truth is, academic ability is only really relevant in a select few areas of practice, eg commercial litigation, or some areas of transaction work, where intellectual brainpower gains you an edge over opponents/competitors.

at the partners' level, law is more of a business. that means being a good lawyer means knowing how to schmooze with clients, network, and sell yourself and your team. EQ is something that academic ability can't help bolster.

Yah I did. Was seeing if I can apply to the firm mah.

Cambridge or NUS?
 

Hi everyone, I'm holding on to an offer from NUS Law with bond-free scholarships from NUS and a local bank. I've also been shortlisted by Cambridge and I'll be having my interview sometime this month.

From your experience in the industry, is a legal education at Oxbridge necessarily better than one at NUS? Also, do local bond-free scholarships carry any weight in the legal industry?

My sensing now is that studying at Oxbridge brings about three main advantages in the form of the prestige that accompanies these schools, the rigour of the legal education in view of the tutorial system, and the possibility of qualifying and working in the UK. I do not mind working in the UK in the short run (+-10 years) but would ultimately want to settle down in SG after obtaining international experience.

But at the same time, NUS offers a free university education, great profs who are well versed in the local laws, and a direct path to qualifying and practising in SG. Granted, the cost is not really an issue for me as my parents are able to sponsor my university education.

I would appreciate if you could share your thoughts :)

Pass your interview first then worry about this

Cambridge anytime. Someone already said in this forum before that the top 3 posts of the 4G leaders are all from Cambridge. That’s only one reason. But Cambridge is the best university since c. 1209.
More than 800+ years of being the greatest.

If I have a first from Kings, does that mean I am half as good as a Cambridge graduate?

Top barrister chambers only hire Oxbridge. Even if it’s a 2:1 Oxbridge grad.
Very rare to see a KCL first as silk/door tenants at top sets.
That explains it.

Actually top four posts if you include the Sec-Gen, Chairman, 1A Sec Gen and 2A Sec Gen.
Four of them from Cambridge.

Personally, I recommend you do the 4 years at NUS Law. After that, go do your BCL/LLM at oxbridge can liao. Here's why:

(1) tbh nus is as good as oxford. most of my profs were from oxford BCL/PHD anyway and teach in a similar fashion.
(2) you can get oxford profs as well when they visit - just take their intensives.
(3) exams are generally open book - why the hell you wanna memorise like mad?
(4) where is it you wanna practice? If you want to practice SG Law, don't waste 1 year for Part A and RLT - easier to just study at NUS for that additional period - heard of oxbridge people failing Part A (bless their souls).
(5) Do your BCL/LLM. you can then call yourself a oxbridge graduate as well. Can take a year off work/get firm to sponsor - life also good.

Oh to add some more - scholarship kinda no one cares. I forgot how many of us bond-free scholars are there.

You wanna distinguish yourself? Go bag some book prizes. The imba students literally bag dean's list + 1-2 book prizes a year on a consistent basis.

Poster is right about (1)-(4). Partially correct about (5). No firm will sponsor a person for the BCL/LLM. This is not management consulting where you work 2-3 years and then they pay for your MBA. Salty about this because it’s the truth

should have saved ur money and went to bristol. 1 pqe can make chief legal officer.

Hi everyone, I’m a law student studying in the UK and I’m graduating in June 2019. I’ve been applying to firms for RLT/TC but so far not a single one has responded. My grades aren’t amazing but they aren’t bad either, and I have tons of extra-curriculars. Does anyone have any advice? It’ll be appreciated, thanks!

Hi, poster from above (the nus fellow). I agree with you that most firms don't offer to sponsor. I guess I'm a bit luckier cause my firm made me the offer (an int firm). But need to bond a few years in return - I think lawyers can and should try to pitch for it especially since mid-level associates are quite in demand for now, can try your lucky perhaps

in today's market, it's either gonna be top grades or great connections. to be very honest no one cares about extra curriculars if you have neither.

if you have neither, be prepared to grit your teeth and lower your expectations and keep applying.

Time to be shameless & pull any possible strings you/your family may have.
Rewrite your cover letter. I've heard of people with decent grades who were not shortlisted because of a bad one.
Modify your CV. Clearly, something isn't working. The other reply is not wrong in saying that extra-curriculars are not really important. If you want to include them, make sure you mention how they're relevant to your application/your suitability as a trainee.
How many places have you applied to? You need to apply to way more. You can check the LawSoc TC listings page for any vacancies but many of those require immediate commencement of training. Then again, keep in mind that firms take anywhere from 1 week to 3 months to respond, so you may just need to sit tight. It should help if you did any internships, since those tend to be the places you get your TC from.
Google for tips on TC apps, if you haven't done so yet. There is quite a lot of sound advice from seniors out there/resources available to prep you for the process. Good luck!

Managed to share a conversation with TSY once a few years ago. It was like speaking with the devil. Hahaha.

As for corp, I have been on the other side of the table from them as well. Felt like they were just being antagonistic for the sake of it...

What about applying for jobs in the UK itself? I know of some Singaporeans who joined magic circle or silver circle firms there after graduation.

None of them are JLCs either. Even the legal service is aware they are degree mill products.

If you are set on starting your career at an international firm in London then an Oxbridge undergrad degree (or any UK uni degree tbh) is far superior to any qualification you can get at NUS.

Then get Oxbridge lor. NUS is sg law. Oxbridge is engrish lor. If you wanna work in engrish place you need engrish law.

But think carefully. Brexit is coming. You better go study NY law cause that's probably gonna be really popular as choice of law in future

Tia gong nus valedictorian didn't bother applying jlc (and a few more strong candidates). Maybe got chance.

Yeah brexit or not, Oxbridge still the greatest for common law syllabus.
Get Oxbridge law degree first, then take NY bar.
Come back work few years. Then run for parliament.

replying at 3.23 am? lawyer credentials verified

Usually you need top grades to justify your visa. If op can’t even get SG TCs, UK even harder eh.

What school? First Class from degree mill alr hard to get places. Let alone not amazing results.

BTW No firm gives a **** about your extra curricular singapore law students society, ie pub crawls.

generally true. but i think doing well in high-profile moots (eg, Jessup, Vis) can help. like those bigger moots NUS/SMU typically do well in. definitely not those lame speed moots or intra-UK uni rubbish moots

Most firms will look at your academic prizes. Have you seen some of the jokers? They collect book prizes like Pokémon gym like that. Sick as heck.

Which uni? If kings or bristol can apply to grab or go jek to ferry the FTs about.

Lol the level of salt towards UK grads is so high in this forum... I don't get it, is it because local uni grads are afraid that foreign law grads will compete with them or something.

Any insights into the SMU JD program? Did some sleuthing and it seems that the number of practising lawyers from the class of 2017 is far lower than compared to previous years?

Hi seniors, does any one have any insights on where people who fail part b (ie fail more than 2 papers) usually end up? Is it worth waiting another 6 months to take the re-examination, or, is it preferable to consider doing something else after one finishes one’s TC?

For the former, securing employment at a decent mid size firm post-re-examination seems difficult, and even if possible, the current outlook in the legal industry isn’t very bright - dismal salary generally if not in a decent firm.

For the latter, how common is this? How receptive are employers generally to law grads with zero internship experience outside the legal industry? What paths are available? MA programmes or consulting?

For context, I’m not from a degree mill and did decently well in law school. Also, even if I were to pass part b, I’m very inclined to consider alternative routes, not least because I’m not sure if I can see myself doing legal work for the next 30-40 years.

://treeofprosperity.blogspot.com/2017/04/my-jd-aftermath-1-adult-education-and.html

There you go. Don't bother doing it. "a) General message for aspiring JDs - Don't do it.

First of all, most professionals looking for legal conversion are probably doing it out of pragmatism so I don't expect most JD aspirants to be financially independent and studying for a degree out of sheer vanity like myself.

Anyway, I caught up with some class-mates last night and we all agreed that our decision to take the SMU JD was not rational in hindsight. None of us would recommend this course to others for now."

Don't kumgong and do. JD from SMU, GLB from NUS, some koyok from suss all not useful when you can't land a job with it after.

Also, your prior job experience is disregarded from hiring. I got frens who tio snub by HR who say "your old job experience no count". No higher starting pay.

Some more if you wanna do, I think JD/GLB cheaper than the koyok from suss. Suss need pay arm and leg.

If you didnt come from a degree mill and did decently well in school why would you be afraid of failing part b? Part b is impossible to fail if you are a half decent law grad

Because he thinks getting a first from Kings is decent and that Kings isn’t a degree mill.

Did you fail part b? If you did, then to be brutally honest, don't bother with the former option. It's hard to fail part b and firms know that. The failure rate is so low, you will be up against people who passed it at the first try. No prizes for guessing who will win the battle for employment.

Better off cutting your losses and doing other things. Don't do postgrads though. It's a trap. Best get called first. Your marketability will rise.

Once fail part b, it depends which firm you’re in.
In larger firms, they have no short of suitors. Consequently, they will use it as an excuse not to retain.

In smaller firms, depends on your relationship with boss.
If you can do your work, then if you fail one and resit and pass, no major consequences.

You’re incorrect. It is true part b is impossible to fail taking into account resits.
On first attempt, there are many who fail one subject.

I recommend the reverse, if you can afford it. Go Oxbridge for undergrad and shoot for a FCH (it's easier than at NUS, plus it's actually possible to get good grades while having a good social life in the uk). If you really want, do an LLM at NUS (though i dont think it's worth it unless you want to practise a very technical area of law like shipping). Oxbridge grads most definitely would not lose out to NUS grads, here or anywhere else in the world. Oh, and I think most BCL/LLM(Cantab) would not refer to themselves as 'oxbridge grads', a term understood by most to be referring to someone who did undergrad at oxbridge.