unhinged lol

everyone knows that ptc contract is never really guaranteed with an rlt contract, and that sometimes **** happens and you have to apply for ptc contract elsewhere due to your own fault of not being retained or unforeseen circumstances (with a firm that could be better or worse, many times it can be better)

also, your numbers are off, clown

Yah lol, don’t scold others just because their dads can afford to send them. I studied local law too, but would have been happy if my dad had 300K to spare to send me to overseas

No bell curve, life is good

I was from a humbler middle income fam too. Unlike the upper mid class folks which comprise the majority of the legal profession, my dad could only afford to sponsor 1 kid's overseas education (my older sibling). Mom's a homemaker. Hence I had to study local.

I think local law degree does gives one a good ROI, especially since top tier UK law doesn't really confer an overwhelming advantage compared to NUS or SMU; an advantage yes, but not significantly so if you're talking about the local legal industry.

After grad, grinded in Big4 for a bit, went to smaller mid-sized firm, now in-house drawing about $15-16k-ish pm now. Definitely nowhere near the top end of the profession, but I'm honestly earning much more than my dad ever did in his career.

For humbler background folks, I think there's real value for money with a relatively cheap and subsidized local LLB if you're lucky enough to get a spot in the local law schs.

When were you called? Life may not be as easy for young law grads with the advent of AI (or even AGI, not the upgraded chatbot that makes up fake caselaw)

Humbler middle income family = can sponsor 1 kid to study overseas? Pls, who are you kidding?

In comparison to the rest of the profession? So many lawyers come from families that easily send all 2 or 3 of their kids overseas.

Some parents really do scrimp and save to be able send one of their children to study in overseas uni. It easily represents the single biggest expense for their kid that they could incur in their lifetimes.

What laptop should I get for the bar exam? My current one is old - intel 8th gen should I stick to this one or get a nicer one

Anyone who comes from a family which can afford to send at least 1 child to study overseas is definitely not from a “humbler middle income family”. Describing oneself as such only reflects how privileged and shallow one is.

Which international firms in SG pay more than big 4?

Besides BMWL and cc

All the firms offering E&W/dual qualification

Tell me that you are privileged and out of touch with reality without saying so.

Wondering whether anyone could provide guidance on the base salary range for a counsel position at a mid tier international law firm in the current environment and whether remuneration will also be influenced by subject matter expertise.

Thanks in advance.

Should be around 22k to 25k. Not ideal. Better to take your chances with Arvin Lee.

OP might be out of touch. But what he says is true. A subsidized local law school education puts you in a pretty similar footing for a decent paying offramp as an expensive OSU law degree. After that, your trajectory more or less hinges on your career performance as a junior associate.

Latest NUS tuition fees for faculty of law is around $50K for all 4 years. I can imagine it's an order of magnitude more expensive for a UK or Australian university, plus COL and miscellaneous expenses.

So the ROI angle is not wrong.

Any thoughts on the latest Chambers rankings?

baker m&a dropped to band 3. 10 char

Don’t disagree. The out of touch point was the apparent suggestion like he is a sob story or a story of a person made good somehow.

Is it common to do a part-time job while studying for Part B to earn income? (for those from not as well-to-do families)

Yes, just make sure you've got enough time to make sure you pass everything.

If got Andrew Martin become band 3. Now have Theo heng super star next year save them become band 1 liao

Why is Clarence Lun and Fervent not ranked. The rankings must be rigged.

anyone else dying with work around christmas / new year?

sian ttm

Choosing Between Oxford MFE and SMU Juris Doctor
 

Hi,

I'm at a significant crossroads in my academic and career journey and could really use your insights! I've been fortunate enough to get accepted into the Oxford Master of Financial Economics (MFE) and the SMU Juris Doctor program. I'm still waiting on the results from the NUS Juris Doctor program.

A little background: The Oxford MFE is a 9-month program, whereas a typical Juris Doctor in Singapore spans 3 years. My parents are supportive and willing to fund my education. My undergraduate studies were in Architecture, where I graduated with a First-Class Honours, and I've also scored 338/340 on the GRE. Additionally, I've applied to master's programs in Finance and Financial Engineering at NUS, NTU, and overseas institutions like MIT, Yale, and Columbia.

Here's where I need your advice:

Passion: Although my background is in design, I find myself passionate about various fields. My experience includes internships at several architecture firms, where I adapted to the intense 996 work culture. Both law and finance intrigue me equally, as I've spent a few months exploring the teaching materials in both domains.

Salary Concerns: Salary is a primary consideration for me. While the salary structure in big 4 law firms is quite transparent, I'm curious about the prospects in the job market for someone with a master's in finance, especially without a relevant bachelor's degree.

I'm torn between these paths and would really appreciate your perspectives, especially from those who might have been in similar situations or have insights into these career fields.

TL;DR: Accepted into Oxford MFE and SMU Juris Doctor, with a background in Architecture and high GRE scores. Seeking advice on career prospects and salary expectations in finance vs. law.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Between finance and law, it's a no-brainer. Always pick finance. Being a lawyer does not pay anywhere near as well as finance does.

Finance without a shadow of a doubt. Oxford is a top target school for finance in both London and Sg, even at graduate level. If you know how to interview you can practically walk in to any firm/bank. Unlike law, in Sg finance in general is heavily skewed towards overseas grads.

To put it into perspective timings-wise - if you get into a very good IB in Sg straight out of your ~1 year MFE, you'd be on at least $120k base.

Whereas if you did law, it would take you at least 7 years (3 years JD, 1 year TC, ~6 months Part B, and then 3-4 PQE at B4) to get to $120k.

The numbers cited for Big 4 are generally accurate. To add further:

Not sure about Oxford MFE programme specifically, but I'd imagine Oxford as a target school would easily give what OP needs, which is an interview and to land an internship opportunity in the City. So long as OP is ready to hustle.
LSE would be a good choice too.

OP, NUS JD is a terrible prospect if your priority is money, which it rightly should be at this age.
You're gonna give up/pivot away from your existing career track and amassed skillset, forego 5 years in salaried opportunity cost, plus spend a ton of money that isn't government subsidized. And only to end up at square one: the same position as a 24 year old law undergrad.

Don't be fooled by the programme name. "Juris Doctor" in Singapore is not a prestigious professional grad degree on par with an MBA or a North American JD. Its basically an undergraduate law degree disguised as a postgrad degree to sucker people with a dream to do law. Career outcomes are no more different than if you'd studied law at the undergrad level.

A Singapore JD will not put you in an advantaged position to join US White Shoe or int'l firms where you access US law firm pay levels (which is the only outcome that would make such a career pivot worthwhile). You'd likely still have to grind in a Big4 firm for 2-3 years before being competitive for int'l firms, and even then have to fight with multitudes of Big4 junior assocs also looking to jump to these firms.

Do the JD ONLY if law is so strong a personal aspiration that you're willing to stay way behind your peers (of the same age bracket) financially for a long time, and possibly put a lot of life plans on hold.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your helpful comments. I understand the higher upside of IB compared to law, but I'm also aware of the intense competition in finance, with less than 1% of graduates securing coveted roles. In contrast, law might offer a lower ceiling but seems to have higher average salaries than the financial field. For instance, while Big 4 law firms pay less than IB, my chances of landing a role there seem higher than securing a position in IB or a Bulge Bracket firm.

I'm also contemplating how a 9-month Oxford MFE will impact my employability, given my architecture background. From what I've seen on LinkedIn, Oxford MFE grads from Singapore with engineering backgrounds have had varied success - some securing analyst positions at Deutsche Bank with decent salaries and bonuses, while others find roles at local banks like DBS or OCBC with salaries around 5 to 6k.

For context, I am currently 23 and my ultimate fear is ending up as an insurance agent or in a sales role at a local bank like OCBC, not that there's any disrespect to those in such positions, but I feel I've put in significant effort to shift my career. This decision is quite complex, and I'm in a challenging spot. I'd appreciate any further insights, especially regarding the real-world implications of an Oxford MFE for non-experienced individuals.


Thanks again for your guidance.

Don't pick the JD route if you are thinking about financial returns.

It is more likely than not that you won't recover the opportunity cost lost from studying full time for the JD, studying for Part B (SG bar exam), and doing a full year of traineeship for shitty pay. Even after all that, you may not even get into the Big 4 which means you may be earning pay that's shitter than the 5-6k salaries you mentioned in local banks like DBS or OCBC.

Not to mention AI is catching up really quickly, junior lawyer jobs are likely on the chopping block in the next 5 to 10 years.

You should ask people in the finance forums about the ROI for Oxford MFE.

Have you done internships in finance or law yet though? Might be more worthwhile to do an internship or two before taking the leap.

Also, why not a masters at London Business School? That would be a clear win

You are receiving legitimate advices from several concerned posters regarding your situation. Hence I am giving my feedback from a different angle: Whether you graduate from Oxbridge/Lbs/lse , you have a good chance of securing a first round interview that's about as far as it can bring you. In addition to the technical discipline, you will be expected to demonstrate various humanities skills and personal personality in addition to looks in order to reach advanced stage of the selection process. For BB front office roles, you will be facing very stringent competition from like minded competitors. To summarize,
you must not only have confidence to be a suitable fit, buy above all else have the courage to assume the challenges ahead and take risk.

Your success ultimately depends on your ability, personal skills and what the universe has in store for you. While it is generally true that average junior BBB investment analysts out earn average lawyers at the Big 4, this should not bother you if you are more inclined towards law and are confident that you can handle the stress which accompanies post-grad law school and the few tough years after graduation.

Also, there are JD grads who outperform their LLB peers. A quick search on Linkedin will reveal one such legend. Man did a 2 years JD at SMU after his finance degree and was the top student of his JD cohort. He is currently a full equity partner at one of the top 5 PPEP firms. Legend achieved all this in less than 12 years (2 years JD, 2 years JLC, 2 years L and W, 5 years KL and now at his present firm).

Thanks everyone for the great feedback on my post!

Your insights about finance and law careers have been super helpful. I appreciate the detailed info on salary and career paths – it’s a lot to think about. Your advice is making my decision clearer. Cheers for taking the time to share your thoughts! I'll mull over this and make an informed choice.

Thanks again!

Oh yes K.B. Truly a brilliant mind of our generation.

Some people are very driven and a cut above the rest, regardless of what academic field

Is this Clarence Lun? Or Arvin Lee?

What’s the fascination here with Arvin lee? I googled him and found absolutely nothing good or bad. So what’s the beef here?

You are not wrong to say the chances of getting Law Big 4 is much higher. FYI WP of the Big 4 takes in second lowers (bottom 30-ish%) for their Litigation department. So does DRD (the Big 4 wannabe) for Corporate Real Estate.

Yup. Big4 + Dentons Rodyk is not difficult to get in. Nowhere equivalent to the competition for roles in the bulge bracket banks

A better comparison would be Management Associate programmes.

The chances of a law student landing a Big4+DRD TC, is roughly similar to the chance of a business student landing an MA programme spot (in any reputable company / large MNC).

Why is DRD included with Big4? Is their NQ pay and lockstep same as Big 4?

I heard the new RE person SLB hired is a piece of work too. The stories I heard from my friends who were under him at his previous firms were pretty horrific