What a silly reply! How to show his prowess if not given an opportunity.

A good salesman is a good salesman.
His previous sales record from any salesjob will prove this easily,
Education is secondary in such cases.

You're missing his point..

No use correcting him/her..people here really have selective reading issues. We're talking about freshies with little to virtually zero experience trying to break into the FO. Then now we have smart asses trying so hard to form the best possible "what if" scenario.

if you have >few years of working experience, i don't really give a **** about your paper. Just tell me, all things being equal except qual, why should i hire you over someone from the local U who has a GPA in the upper quartiles ?

The topic here is on freshies. Don't come and drag in people who already have had working exp. To be fair, i was once told by the HR that there was an SIM UOL fella cum some committee member of SIM investment club. He was selected for the MAP interview of my firm. But sadly he didn't get past the 2nd rd. It was an operations track. So it is not impossible to get called up for MAP interviews as a DL private grad. Whether you can make it past or not that's another story. I personally do know of some DL grads (not sim) working in the FO of other banks (knew them from seminars and name cards). But they didn't join as a freshie, they already have min. ~3-4yrs of exp.

For those who still wanna BS and quote about your friends, your mother's friend's daughter, yada yada, please kindly show us i.e. linkedin profile of those FO guys/ladies who joined as FRESH GRAD straight out of SIM. Just to give you some leeway, you can include AM firms as well. But please don't give us the bull crap SME prop trading firms like six cap and etc. Everyone in the streets know what kind of firms they are.

please wake up and make an effort to level up yourself. Stop reading stupid articles in efc or WSO and alike. In this internet age, if you still can't find out things yourself... then i sincerely wish you all the best.

-former SIM UOL DL grad years ago

I graduated from SIM-UOL 4 years ago, currently working in a well known MNC (not bank). It was hard when I first started out, but am thankful that I landed my current role. My advice to all SIM-UOL freshies is not to restrict yourself in your career options, be humble to learn and value add in the early stage of your career. Once you have the relevant experience/knowledge and good attitude, opportunities may just be opened up for you. Just sharing from my own experience.

Anyone read recently in Straits Times invest section on Sunday? Featured a few local university students starting investment clubs and running portfolios. Would these activities help in securing a trading or investment banking job after graduation? Can such ECA be counted as experience similar to internship when applying for FO jobs?

If you are seriously into trading why not borrow a sum of money from your parents or mortgage their property and start trading on your own? Who knows you might rack up hundred and millions of profit every month?

My parents are willing to set aside up to 30k to invest in my trading if needed. My question is more whether this sort of thing can help if I have no relevant internship or experience?

My family is not rich and we do not have few million dollars just to throw around for trading... Intention is to get a trading or investment related job after graduation next year.

I'll be straight and honest with you. If you can show positive returns with low volatility for the next three years trading your parent's 30k, then it's a worthy resume point.

The thing is ... can you? I don't want to question your trading experience but I'll check - what assets you'll trade, what strategy, what time frame? Do you have experience trading before? Do you know about the spreads you need to beat? Are you familiar with hedging around event risk?

So many people come here and say, if I can get a 20% return from $100,000, then confirm employer will hire me even if I am SIM graduate. Just answer the question first ... can you even get a 20% return?

Exactly it's not so easy to get good returns and if you're thinking of doing it by "luck", hahaha, good luck to you.

Anyway, the big BB banks will ask about your trading strategies when you interview with them. There is no smoking or bluffing them-- if you're just lucky 1-2 months, they will most likely know as well and catch you on it.

Get real k, most people aren't suited to be traders. You need to be very smart and technical.

This world is for dreamers aka winners.
Loser mentality like yours talking about how one is restricted by their education/how rich your parents are/ competition you face from local/Ivy League grads won't make it far in life.
Btw it's average for people around me to make $1M a year and 50% of them are not local grads, so suck it up.

Last year I made about $500 with my own money of ~$4000, that's about 25% playing the stock market. I am hoping to make 25-30% this year. So if I can get average 25% for 2 years, will this help in getting a trading job?

Yes it might. Peg to the S&P 500 and STI. We always look at how many % you beat the index by. Not absolute returns. S&P go up 24% this year u get 25% returns, nothing special. If S&P drop 24% this year and u get 25% returns, ****ing impressive.

Consistency is key too. Maintain a consistently high returns over a benchmark index maybe over 3-4 years at least. Much more valuable than your degree.

why this thread got non uol or sim ppl? nothing better to do ah? or is it kena scolded at work then come here scold ppl to de-stress?

1 million peso or rupiah?

because the truth is uol/sim/LSE clementi will always be trash

1 million monopoly notes.

1 million British Pounds (from King of Hell)

actually the truth hor

is u just using online forum to vent your anger, capable local uni grads wouldn't even come in here, let alone reply

SIM UOL Business Grad
 

Job market is pretty bad right now, mostly offering about $2.5k for junior executive roles from what I heard from my juniors. Bear in mind that I had about 2 years of prior work experience including a permanent job before i enrolled full time in UOL biz degree. I just started.

Been a year since i worked with my currently company, half pte half govt organization. Starting pay was $3k. I went for a couple of interviews before securing my job and many employers were only willing to offer $2700 or below. Be confident in yourself (:

Starting pay
 

I just want to say that starting pay is very dependent on the industry, company and job function. I graduated from SIM UOL 4 years ago. But I continue to upgrade myself with a masters degree and currently doing a professional certification sponsored by the company.
Currently working in a global MNC (top employers in the industry) with a very competitive pay package. As long as you continue to work hard, value add and be good in what you do, you will be able to increase your earning power.

What masters are you doing and at which school?

I did masters in innovation from SMU.

Wow, so you are a very innovative person?

Well, it's a very interesting course. I guess everyone can be innovative.

Hi everyone from SIM,

i was reading the forum and just want to give a few tips as i do know how hard it is to get a finance job from SIM. I took around 4mths to find a desired finance job. it's about my 3rd yr working.

Currently, Im in a front office, dealing role in a bank. i deal with forex, swaps, FI, repos and also does market making etc... It is the department that does the fixed rate, floating rate swaps kinda thing we study.

my path basically goes like this..
trading with my own money, start studying in SIM, holiday spent proprietary trading at a legitimate firm (not 6cap), Holiday spent in private bank, grad, dealing in fund, dealing in Bank.

tips.

1) Try to work part time in bank. I didnt know it was important until people actually called me up for interview because i have work as scanner-boy in a private banking environment

2) try to pick up skills. Bloomberg, reuters, excel functions, algos, programming does help

3) prepare for interview & apply for the right job. local banks and americans are super paper chase.. i think it is fine to skip applying to them if u want front office jobs.

Interview is everything. When employers tested me on options, excel and every finance qns, they are usually beyond textbk. E.g. I was asked what are the 3 ways to form a butterfly with options.. calculate swap pts, substantiate view of usd/sgd in 1yr, number of rate hikes, taylor rule....

4) i do not wish to encourage paper chasing but sadly CFA and Masters do help. All my colleagues have master degree.

And in regards to trading, let me clarify a few pts:

i) proprietary trading firm do exist.. but i advise u to trade 2yrs, 364days/yr b4 u decide to sign up.

ii) no prop trading in banks due to volcker & dodd frank. we unwind position fast.

iii) very little chance to run your own book in banks. it is a business model.

iv) buy-side punters are the most fun with highest variable bonus, but least job security and easily exploited.

FO can get about 5to6k payroll in about 3 to 5 years.

Why did you go dealing in a fund and then dealing in a bank? Would a slightly more preferred path be dealing in a fund then to a analyst or trader then finally to portfolio manager?

That's a pretty low base for a dealer. I'm guessing you are at a local bank. Your bonus must be good though. Any numbers to share?

here comes the brutal truth..

1) 80% to 90% of analyst dont become portfolio manager
2) traders cannot become pm unless they know portfolio construction
3) analyst is most places is just a rank. u can be a hr analyst too..
4) i start with high 2k, 2yrs+ of working, around 4... bonus in fo range frrom 2 to 6mths.. buy side can get upto 12..
5) im heavily discounted in pay in my last 2 job because im not a master degree holder and im private u..
6) a rates trader or market maker makes abt 6to15k/mth with 2 to 10mth bonus.. depending on the bank..

the system is as such.. if u wanna make lots of money, i suggest try to do a business. portfolio manager is difficult. dont believe me? go wiki blacklittle model and get pass the first paragraph... if u love financial mkt, then fo is worth all the hours and effort

My turn to clarify.

Of course I was referring to Analyst on the front office analyst to portfolio manager track. I was not referring to black office analyst and definitely not HR analyst.

I wiki Black-little model as you asked. I think the confusion in the first paragraph comes where it says:

"The model starts with the equilibrium assumption that the asset allocation of a representative agent should be proportional to the market values of the available assets, and then modifies that to take into account the 'views' (i.e., the specific opinions about asset returns) of the investor in question to arrive at a bespoke asset allocation."

My first question would be how do you measure the market value of a particular asset? The natural answer would be equity indices for the equity asset. We could use currency indices, such as DXY for the us dollar, for the currency asset. However, I doubt the indices for the other currencies, EUR, JPY, are widely used.

to be honest.. i got a number of friends in fo of hedge funds too.. and they know tht most analyst do not become portfolio manager.

im sry abt BL model.. what i wanted to say is tht what we learn in sch was nv used and a most portfolio construction from funds i know had moved from MPT, marko to smth else.

being a pm requires years of honing in maths, financial mkt experience and asset class knowledge.. actually private U can do it too.. it takes abt 10plus to 20yrs

I actually never understood what PM must know a lot about asset class knowledge, as you quoted. Financial markets and math, I agree. But hear me out.

You know that funds are divided into strategies. Won't a PM in a fund that trades currencies just need to know all about the asset class of currencies? Why should he need to know a lot about commodities, equities and bonds (c, e, b). Sure, he of course needs to know about the other three asset classes, but certainly not 10 years of knowledge worth of (c, e, b).

Given how investing is now done with a myraid of instruments, I dare say that the PM who specializes in just currencies will perform better than the PM who has 10 years of knowledge of everything.

I think a PM can be respectable if he know all the topics in that one asset class - monetary policy affecting currencies, central banks motives, technical analysis, OTC market microstructure for trading currencies, currency options. Why bother honing skills in (c, e, b). He sees where interest rates are trading and then trade EURUSD. He doesn't need to know how to price interest rate swaps, presumably what he'll learn in the 10 years. Besides that's why you pay the banks to do that for you.

Too much knowledge might even paralyze your investment decisions. For example, if I was going to invest in a currency, I should do 80% analysis on currencies and 20% everything else, as opposed to 25% each analyzing currency, equities, commodities, bonds.

Would you rather be director at Citibank or portfolio manager with a $500m portfolio?

Come boys, let's answer.

Whichever pays more. $$$ talks.

Back to the same buyside higher bonus, sell side higher base argument. I'm speculating here, but I'll go with:

Executive Director at Citi: $250k base. $100k to $200k bonus.
Portfolio Manager at $500m fund: $180k base. $100k to $300k bonus.

For the PM, let's say he does a 5% return. With fund model of keeping 20% of profits, the fund will get 0.05 * 0.2 * 500m = $5m.

Fund manager keeps 50%, so $2.5m spread between PM, analyst, etc. You see bonus of $300k to PM can be paid.

Which one would you like to be?

being a pm is like being a successful businessman.. thr is uncertainty and many ppl dont make it thr. eventually most of my friends realised they r happier whr they r.

y PM need to know every facet of finance?
i) buy hk stocks
ii) hedge hk or cny with cnh forward/futures
iii) the swap pts incurred can be changed into a floating
iv) instead of closing the position mths down the line.. i can buy an option which will incur some premium, which my profit may be able to cover.
v) nw delta hedge the option
vi) ccy hedge the option if needed.

when interest rate moves 25bp, what is my dv01, how will it change the convexity of the bonds or loans that im holding

The variable component doesn't add enough equity to make the PM role more desirable than the ED role. The ED effectively has a 350k-450k pay package while the PM only has a 280k-480k range. And granted, this may differ between departments but most EDs I see in the banks I've worked in, 90% of their jobs are attending meetings and responding to emails. There's almost no grunt work or heavy lifting required when you reach that level.

In terms of hours and energy required vs the remuneration, the ED role is a no brainer. I know that many of you will argue that you prefer the challenge and job scope of the PM role, but honestly, if you love investment decisions and managing assets, and you are reasonably successful at it, which better client to take on other than yourself? Manage your own wealth and see it grow.

Yup, I can agree with that. But just a few things I would like to mention.

While it is true that EDs are about meetings and formulating strategic directions, no grunt work, I'd also argue that for PMs, you are free from the grunt work IF your positions are in your favour. For example, you could do 6 months of research, form the positions based on your investment idea, and if you're right, just sit back and let the market do the grunt work. There's a saying I've learnt - "Let the market do the work". Buy at X, let the market push up the price to Y.

And before any of you flame me for saying I have zero experience on how a hedge fund trades, yes, I classifying the hedging, sizing, trade executing, trade booking, monitoring event risk as minute compared to the investment idea. One good instance of this is the SPX bull run in 2014. Had you decided on long, you're gold. And also the Crude bear run in middle of 2014.

So, as a PM, if your calls are right, you pretty much can relax for the rest of the year.

Finally, as to being your own client, it doesn't really work that way because you won't have the resources of a hedge fund. Market quality data, PhDs in research, team of 3 analysts, lowest spread execution are all only possible in a fund and not on your personal computer. And I truly believe this difference is what makes you better predict the market outcome than if you were on your own.

Granted, fair points as well.

hi can u clarify on these 2 points? thanks

1. what's wrong with six capital?
2. do u advise starting off in prop trading or s&t at a bank?
3. what's yr opinion on paper trading/hedging in commod trading houses?

anyone else feel free to comment too