Anyone work in JPM/GS/Morgan Stanley back office before?
 

how is it like working as a controller?:confused:

https://www.mycareersfuture.gov.sg/j...commendedJobJD

https://www.mycareersfuture.gov.sg/j...b0b558cfaa5547

https://www.mycareersfuture.gov.sg/j...f9aebb40895602

What’s your BG and how many YOE do you have?

is this considered middle office or back office role?

Hi have worked/am working in some of these banks before, and in some of these functions as well (ambiguity for anonymity sake). The BBs dont generally distinguish between BO and MO. They are just "not FO". Having said, these are accounting related roles, hence sitting in finance. Two of the largest groups within finance are legal entity controllership ( where u look after the pnl/balance sheet of an entity, make sure it is properly funded, or that it fulfils regulatory capital requirements etc. The other major group is product controllership, where u talk to traders and make sure their desk pnl/risk is booked properly.

The roles you have shown are generally the first (entity controllership). They tend to like hiring auditors types, although there are many who are not as well. But all roles will require accounting knowledge.

Not entirely true that there is no distinction. There are actually roles named XYZ MO (e.g. Trade Support/Client Services/Risk etc.) in top BBs. They are the ones sitting closest to the trading floor & typically have some form of communication with the clients (although not as much as the FO guys ofc).

Not entirely true that there is no distinction. There are actually roles named XYZ MO (e.g. Trade Support/Client Services/Risk etc.) in top BBs. They are the ones sitting closest to the trading floor & typically have some form of communication with the clients (although not as much as the FO guys ofc)

Not entirely true that there is no distinction. There are actually roles named XYZ MO (e.g. Trade Support/Client Services/Risk etc.) in top BBs. They are the ones sitting closest to the trading floor & typically have some form of communication with the clients (although not as much as the FO guys of course)

They do actually. Some roles in top BBs are actually named XYZ MO (Middle Office). Think of trade support, risk, client services etc.

The term "Middle Office" in BBs is a functional/team thing -> Strictly, it refers to the team that supports trading desks by booking trades, either on the street side or client side.

In other words, it is a matter of nomenclature for that one team. But as long as you do not generate revenue or bring in clients, you are "not FO". The traders/sales/bankers don't see a difference in MO/BO, neither does the company nor the employees in "MO/BO". The distinguishment doesn't make sense, especially in an investment bank, because you have scenarios where what you call as "traditional" BO teams, speaking to FO/clients, and what you call "MO" teams, that don't.

Agreed - either your revenue-generating or you're not. That's all.

Fair point. Would just like to point out that there is actually a slight distinction not just in terms of title, but also salary and prospects for MO via-a-vis BO. Think about roles like risk, client services and trade support as opposed to settlements/clearing, technology, compliance and HR.

Not a great difference in pay (pretty minimal), but still noticeable. It is also more likely (although still low) for MO folks to lateral to FO as they are closer to the revenue generating side of the business as compared to those in BO (which are typically situated outside the country or CBD).

Unfortunately, not necessarily true on both counts as well (at least in the context of BB investment banks, can't say for commercial or local banks). The lateral to FO happens in all BO/MO, as long as you can show the FO interviewers within the group you know what they are about. It's "easier" only if you're exposed to what they are doing: A clearing, client onboarding or technology person can just as well go into FO (Have seen a lot of cases), because they knew how desk pnl worked, how trades would be cleared (a very important point for high frequency trading/prime brokerage clients) etc. You can build connections with the desk to increase your chances; and as per mentioned, some BO like technology / client onboarding talk to FO a lot more than your vanilla trade support roles.

Salary wise, again, I didn't see any noticeable difference on both sides. Neither did my colleagues. I was sometimes lower in your "MO", sometimes higher in "BO". Can't say I know fully how compensation is attributed across teams, but pretty sure they don't give a bigger pie to MO over BO, simply because in these BBs, the bosses do not really care.

Care to share your YOE and comp?

Anyway I’m not sure which BB you are in, but most BBs here have their BO situated outside of CBD and tbf only MO roles like risk and trade support are actually on the same floor/building as the FO folks.

5 coming 6 YOE. Comp is slightly >100k, excluding bonuses. The narrowest definition of BB usually refers to GS/JPM/MS because of their investment banking capabilities, and I am working/have worked at some of these.

GS has 2 offices: One Raffles Link and Mapletree Anson (both in CBD)
JPM has 2 offices: Capital Towers (CBD) and One@Changi (Changi Business Park)
MS has 1 office: Capital Square (CBD)

Agree, *only a small handful* MOs sit with the desk, not all. Reason being, the trading desks in Singapore are way smaller compared to that in HK (In all 3 banks, their APAC headquarters is HK, and not Singapore). Hence we are in a situation where most of the FO are in HK, yet most of the MO/BO are in SG.

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Just a funfact: trading desk risk can be both an FO or MO/BO function (ie they get FO pay or BO/MO pay respectively). And as previously mentioned, trade support need not sit with the sales/traders to do their jobs, and banks realize this. In large investment banks with many product offerings, it makes more sense to put 2 different trading desks together rather than an FO+MO combination. Reason being, their trading business is so mature, such that 1 good way of capturing more revenues from existing clients, is to offer cross-asset/product solutions (hence need for multiple desks working together)

That’s not bad at all. Are you verging on VP? Am curious to know the average bonuses at some of these BBs as well if you don’t mind sharing!

Sure. The concept of AWS does not exist for a lot of American companies, including the banks as mentioned in this conversation. Can't say for everyone, but from an MO/BO perspective, I *feel* (based on experience and asking my colleagues) bonuses are more of a absolute number rather than as a % of your salary (at least at the junior level). For analysts and associates, it tends to hover around 10-15k for average performers; lower for poor performers (all the way till 0), higher for poor performers (20-25k).

Not a VP yet (hoping to get it in the coming year or next), hence can't provide much info for that. VP/ED salaries have a larger salary band as compared to the junior level, so I'd imagine the bonus range to be wider; probably 20k upwards. "% of bonus" probably becomes a larger factor as well; can't imagine a very senior VP to be only getting 10-15k. He would be pissed lol

Sorry, I meant "higher for top performers", and "% of salary".

Thanks for sharing! Would be joining MO in a BB myself soon.

Just curious, how are the working hours and consequently WLB like? Am I at a disadvantage if I don’t join the MO/BO graduate program as a fresh grad?

All the best in your new role. A different thread asked a similar question, comparing WLB across these 3 banks, and I replied to it. In short, within this 3, GS generally pays the best for MO/BO, and also has the worst WLB (personal experience and from colleagues who've worked across them). You may have heard of the 100-hour week survey that GS investment banking juniors complained about. MO/BO don't do 100 hours, but the mentality and culture is the same even in BO/MO. People on average do 11-12 hours per day in MO/BO.

If you're joining JPM/MS, your salary trajectory will probably be slightly slower, but your hours will be lesser as well.

No disadvantage to being an experienced hire, or joining from another company. This 3 banks don't have "MA" programmes or "scholars" like others where you are supposedly fast-tracked. Yes they do have some specialist programmes for people in specific roles, like finance or technology etc, but it has no impact on your future salary/career progression.

12 hours for MO is pretty crazy. Correct me if I’m wrong, don’t these graduate programs place them into associate roles after 2 years or so?

Thanks for the spontaneous replies by the way!

Np. They have a "chance" to be promoted to associate in 2.5 years (the local uni intake usually comes in around Jun/July. Performance reviews happen in the second half of the year, and promotions at end of year/start of year). But people who don't get hired through these programs also have a chance to be promoted in 2.5 years as well.

Of course, if you already have 2 years of experience outside, and you join right in the middle of the review cycle, you'll need to do 1 full year so that you will be included in performance review. Then in this case, you will take longer to promote simply by virtue of time, and you having only 1 year to familiarize yourself with the firm systems/tasks.

But if you join as a graduate (maybe just a few months after the university intake), you should not be put at any disadvantage at all, as you'll still be treated as being in the same class.

Did you join as a direct hire? Also interested to find out if your salary trajectory and career progression would be faster/slower if you stayed in one bank for the entirety of the 5 years.

Yup I joined them straight out of school. Tough to say, but if salary was the only factor to consider I would choose to stay in GS as long as possible (simply because I've had the best increases and opportunities there). Of course, selecting a job is never just about money; there will be other things one will consider, like WLB.

Again, this is purely for MO/BO, and based on my personal experience.

how much was the increment from analyst to senior analyst?:confused: and typical bonus?

Hi, a similar question was asked on this thread. You can take a look at my previous response.

oh! thank you! saw the post on bonus. What about increment year on year? (with promotion and without promotion?) not sure what to expect

Shall not compare promotion vs non-promotion years; some BB banks give a pay bump during promotion years, and give little during non-promotion years. Others have a more normalized pay structure that is more dependent on performance.

Increments are generally higher in both absolute and % level at the junior levels. During my first full review, I got an increment of ~25% as I was one of the few top performers. Sounds a lot, but when your base was 4k+ per month as a grad, it's actually not much. My career average is about 14% year on year (after taking into account promotions, good/bad years for the industry etc). Fortunate, as I think it's higher than most of my peers. Most of my peers with similar YOE are tracking at about 8-10% annual growth.

Of course, it's not as crazy as one would expect of an FO role, and you most certainly won't be rich. But I'd still think it would give you a comfortable life in the future.

I shall not compare promotion vs non-promotion years; some BB banks give a pay bump during promotion years, and give little during non-promotion years. Others have a more normalized pay structure that is more dependent on performance.

Increments are generally higher in both absolute and % level at the junior levels. During my first full review, I got an increment of ~25% as I was one of the few top performers. Sounds a lot, but when your base was 4k+ per month as a grad, it's actually not much. My career average is about 14% year on year (after taking into account promotions, good/bad years for the industry etc). Fortunate, as I think it's higher than most of my peers. Most of my peers with similar YOE are tracking at about 8-10% annual growth.

Of course, it's not as crazy as one would being in an FO role, and you most certainly won't be rich. But I'd still think it would give you a comfortable life.

Comfortable life sufficient to afford condo and car? Also would like to know what constitutes a good performer haha

The prices for condos/cars can range from affordable to crazy rich asian. With 5-6 YOE, I could use all my liquid assets + CPF to afford the downpayment on a 1.5m condo by myself if I want, but is it prudent? Probably not. I think you need to define what you want in life, and do the calculation for how much you need.

I can give you the numbers, and you can decide whether it's enough for you. Starting salaries for BB MO/BO are generally between 4k-5k. Apply an annual growth rate to this number (You can use the numbers I shared, or you can apply your own), and decide when you would want to buy a house/car.

I think "good performer" can mean many things, depending on your level/role. Some of the questions bosses may ask are: Are you contributing to huge projects? Are you increasing efficiency such that the team can reduce its headcount budget? Are you delivering value to the firm (like cost savings) that goes beyond what they are paying you? Can you communicate with senior management? Can you manage the juniors under you?

Am really super appreciative of your insights, thanks man!

Understand that the tricky part of MO/BO now is to go beyond BAU to add value to projects (e.g. IA projects). Do you have any tips for someone that is just starting out (essential skills/software to pick up perhaps)?

Despite all the talk of automation, you'll find that even BBs have a lot of struggle moving away from legacy systems and excel. Learn a bit of Excel VBA; almost everyone from FO to BO/MO are still stuck using spreadsheet macros: It may make your life easier, or even impress your bosses.

Talk about Python being the next 'in'-thing is still a little bit immature. Use of Python outside IT Technology and quantitative trading/risk is still pretty sparse. BBs are building new teams embedded within the many divisions (like Operations/Finance/HR), where these people have some sort of coding/automation background, to help uplift the process of those divisions. So while Python is not a must for now, banks are starting to favour people who have both functional and core programming skillsets. This trend should last for at least the next few years.

What about your bosses? Do the VPs/Directors in MO/BO usually stay in private and drive to work?

This is not a well-thought out question. Sharing yes or no does not answer any questions about the job. Yes could mean they are earning well, their spouses are rich, their family is rich, etc. No could mean anything either.

If you're wondering whether MO/BO affords a certain lifestyle, then you should already know so many factors play into that. You can do your own calculations and figure it out for yourself.

Haha I think the person who asked that kind of question won’t even get in :p

I’m actually in tech, just curious about earning power at more senior levels is all.

To the person in MO/BO, do you know the salary range/bands for VPs/EDs?

Newly promoted VPs can start from high 8s/low 9s per month, usually happening within 6 or 7 YOE. Not aware of a hard ceiling for VP/EDs; being mindful that most people retire or leave the firm at this level. Very few make it to MD, and the salary transition from VP to MD is quite a sensitive topic for people at that level. With that said, I have heard of mid level VPs with >15 YOE earning >20k a month.

Wow, always thought the starting for junior VPs is around 10k for BBs. Roughly how many VPs actually make the cut for ED?

Rather than compare across titles, use YOE as a benchmark to decide how much one should be earning. Unlike local banks, people can hit VP in 5 or 6 years if good. With the lower number of years, your salary wouldn't have had enough time to catch up.

To illustrate, a local bank AVP with 8 YOE can be earning as much as a BB VP with 5 YOE. And if another newly promoted BB VP has 7 or 8 YOE, naturally his pay would be higher than the aforementioned BB VP with 5 YOE.

Contrary to what many people think as title inflation, there is some justification to BB employees (from FO to BO) getting promoted to VP faster than at local/european banks; they simply work a lot harder and do a lot more for the same number of YOE (*cue number of hours clocked a week*).

Some BBs have ED as a rank between VP and MD. Some don't. So I can't give you a fair comparison.

Wow I didn't know that there isn't salary ceiling for VP/EDs. I used to assume that your pay was tied to your rank.