Working in a bank
 

I'm currently a part time student in UOL, doing BSC Banking and Finance and its my second year. Currently I'm working in the government organization and I'm 25 this year. I do not have much working experience after being enlisted at the age of 21. I hope to work in a investment bank in future (work related to the financial markets, hopefully at the front office) because i have strong interests in this sector as i have been trading and reading up on the financial news daily. I need advise if i should leave the organization now to gain some working experience related to investment. If i don't leave, i will be graduating at the age of 26 with no working experience.
If i were to leave now before completing my degree, what type of job can let me gain the relevant experience?
If i were to leave upon graduating, what can i start off with?
Really in a mess now. Thanks alot

gosh. seems everyone has "strong interest" in whatever that has these keywords: trading, front office, investment bank, goldman, morgan, big bonus, ...

this is not the case. cos i do have interest in the fast past n challenging working environment thats why i took up banking and finance. would appreciate if there is ppl out there willing to give some advice on how can i achieve it. its good to hear so real life experience from the seniors. thanks

I see too many 20+ looking to work in a bank, particularly investment banks or in finance
So I asked one new grad, do u know what is an investment bank or finance, answer : blank.
Just join? big bonus, big pay, perks
what are these banks looking for? blank

I truly look down on all these sort of people, no substance

I am not sure about u..
just commenting on those that I have met

well, you are biased too.

there's nothing wrong with going after money. this is a capitalist world after all. we all work for a living (most of us are). how "passionate" can you be if you need to work for a living?

the challenge for young people today is how to present their "passion" in a socially acceptable way when it's just all about the money. just reading a few books and trying mock trading accounts isn't going to cut it.

its true that everyone is working for the money but that's definately not my case. i have always wanted a competitive career in the finance sector and i came about reading IB. thats why im just seeking advice through here.

You can either:

- Try getting an internship at banks or similar institutions
- Quit your current job and get into any position in trading or sales (might be low position with low pay but then it helps you once u graduated with your degree)

i dont think there are any intern available for part time student. i guess the only thing i can do now is getting in trading job. but mainly require experience right, thats what im worried about

typically the big banks poach their recruits (MBA, grads) from prestiges uni. Others will just pass over.

Those from non-prestige uni, if they get in, will probably do some operational jobs, strong-interest or not.

what is meant by operation job?

goes to show how "passionate" you are! you are only interested in the front office jobs.... and don't even know how a typical bank operates.

dream on!

this is wat i gather about the threadstarter:
- a part time student in UOL
- hope to work in a investment bank
- work related to the financial markets, hopefully at the front office
- have strong interests in this sector
- have been trading and reading up on the financial news daily
- everyone is working for the money but that's definately not my case
- always wanted a competitive career in the finance sector
- what is meant by operation job?"

i believe he is not "working for the money", at least not yet, when he knows nothing
every candidate i meet has "strong interests", "willing to learn", "team player"
but most cant make it when put through the mill

i actually know of temp staff (doing clerical work), who are invited to join front office jobs due to their good performance (dedicated, meticulous, hardworking)

in short, its not what you talk, its what you do

thanks for the reply. i understand how many might feel cos i dont have much knowledge on FO and i have been asking 'stupid' question. sorry for my ignorance. i truly understand its the action that speaks, that's why i seek advice through this public channel. i just hope to find out where/how can i start as i hop to go on the right track. Truly appreciate those that helped. :)

how is it that B&F students do not know about FO?
Shouldn't they be very familiar with the industry?

I know non-business grads who can tell me that.
And these are the people who eventually get job offers.

ps: posting with your full name? not very smart.

give this guy a break!
seems lost well at least geninue. for front-office role, most are from top tier mba programs or most recently financial engineeering programs. In the older days, some back-office folks could move to front, but increasingly rare given high quality candidates. A lot of traders are hanging on to their job as openings are increasing rare with tougher regulatory environment curtailing excessive risk-taking. Also traders have short life span, not because they get old or less nimble, but the market transparency and efficiency improves such that there is no competitive advantage anymore, a classic example is G10 FX. Many markets are moving towards tighter spread, and not easy to make money anymore.

Do what you are passionate in!
 

Hi Eric,

You aiming to work in a bank, and front office is a good goal. Realistically, it is a lot harder to get into those roles that you are keen in and I speak from experience. The question you should ask yourself is, from where you are, are you going to be able to find a company who will give you an opportunity in the financial world. If so, how can you use that as a stepping stone for those roles you are looking to.

Alternatively, I see that you are interested in trading, if you become passionate in trading, I believe that trading is one of the best jobs in the world. I don't mean trying to get a trader job, again realistically, its really tough. What I am refering to is keeping your 9-5 government job, and trading at night. What can you trade? I might suggest US options and the forex market. These markets are recession proof as you can buy and sell any time of the year or in good or bad times. They are also very active in the night from 9pm onwards.

I have a friend who had a 9-5pm job as an engineer and developed a passion for trading. He did trading at night for a bout 3-4 years almost everyday. He eventually mastered the market and is now a full time trader for himself. He easily earns US1000 a day while spending about 3-4 hrs trading forex and us stock options. The rest of the day is to pursue his other interests.

Do think about what you are really passionate in, its easier to pursue your passions than to pursue "big salary" jobs. I am an engineer by training, I was blessed to switch to front office in a bank and now in the front office of a global financial firm dealing with derivatives. My goal is simply to be like my friend who is a full time trader. I have a strong passion for it and I believe I will be there in around 2yrs.

All the best
N. Anthony

Myself
 

Im a normal acad who scored 9 points & went to poly studying non banking & after army started off at DBS bank as a temp operations staff doing anti money laundering with a pay of $1.6 while studying part time at UniSIM Bsc Finance. After 1.5yrs went to Barclays Wealth Private Bank as a operations staff doing documentations with 65% pay up for 1yr and was transferred to assets creation for 0.5yrs, stil an operations staff. Found an open door to the front office as an private banker assistant, pay was adjusted by 45%. Now after 1 yr soon to b $5. Nothing is impossible in this world. Sharing my experience to encourage many who dare to dream big, pls do it with cautious planned pragmatic steps =)

mastered - yeah right. then temasek, GIC, buffett and paulson should hire 10,000 such traders and make $10m everyday.

among so many octopuses in the world, Paul the oracle made 100% correct predictions - a perfect 8 out of 8 - in the 2010 fifa world cup. this placed him in the top 0.0001% among all octopus oracles. he must be a genius. all octopuses should learn his secret prediction strategy.

my advice: don't waste time. only 10% of day (or night) traders make money. but that's because they were lucky to "discover" a lucky strategy that worked for them in that timeframe (the lucky strategy may not work thereafter), but these people go on to believe they are true geniuses and start writing books and selling seminars (some actually sell seminars despite not making money).

really. if it's so easy, surely some nice chap would have by now made trillions and gone on to change the world, eliminate poverty, build empires, explore the universe, and become god.

Agreed. Esp for stocks, everyone is a genius in a bull or recovery market.

maybe the new grad is wondering who is this laguna, that is asking questions & why the heck in the pecking order, does anybody need to answer the question ??

many in banks have "no substance". they are there because the job pays well. they got in because they look good, have above average intelligence, have connections, got their degrees overseas, speak well, present well.

just try your luck to get in. no harm trying.

Thanks alot for the advices you guys gave. really appreciate it alot. :)

Is CFA required before applying for IB related banking job or i can gt it once im in?

You don't need CFA.

ERIC, if you are still reading this post...

You are going to get negative comments from people who find joy in putting people down. Don't let it get to you. Average achievers are generally bitter people. I consider myself an slightly above-average achiever myself @ 30 yrs, but I see your initiative coming to ask questions before going out to the workforce, which is good.

There is a perception that many people who make it into banks after undergrad studies do well and make good money. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You should have come across this term the Bell Curve. This applies wherever you go, and I am seeing people smack in the middle of this curve in private banking, where I am. You have people who climb high, people who lag behind. My ex team mate in Switzerland worked in the same bank, same job (no promo) for 35 years. That's older than you, older than me. But he has got the widest smile in the whole department, with always a kind word especially for a foreigner like myself.

Back to your post. Find out a bit more if you can by reading forums, or talking to people. Just find out more. Some things may not be easy to understand at first but it helps if you just keep an open mind, open ear, and try to relate on your own terms.

There is a good and lucrative career in banking, and it is rewarding if you CHOOSE to make yourself stand out. That applies for Front, Middle, Back offices. It helps to move around these 3 as well though people would say Front Office pays the best. If you like human relationship and are ok with the banking world, a job as a banker pays really really well (if you are a successful one.) Operations and Middle Office jobs are not too bad although they (quite) definitely pay less. Profit Centre = Front Office. Cost Centre = Operations. You can have a rewarding career in Operations too which I would put myself as a good example.

Just keep an open mind and go for your instinct. Just fresh out of school, what you studied and what you encounter and taste in the working world seldom go hand in hand. Someone who studied banking and go on to earn 350K a year as a banker, things are beyond their wildest dreams. Those who studied the same thing and still earn 3-4K after 5 years, they will curse and lament in a 120deg radius wherever they go.

IT'S ALL RELATIVE. Find out more and if you want to venture in this direction, go for it. For you can move in this GENERAL direction and see what opportunities unfold. There is A WHOLE LOT to banking jobs/functions. A veteran would even be hard pressed to lay them all out in a jiffy.

I can only tell you I took a Dip in banking (don't know still if right move or not now) following by an overseas Bach in Econs (WRONG MOVE) then I bit the bullet to work as temp $7/hour in a top, top investment bank and told myself I am getting converted to a fulltime perm staff no matter what. Guess what, I did it in just 2 weeks when it was a tough environment then. I didn't look back since. Yes I am in Operations, but I can tell you it has been really rewarding so far. Comparing to the engineers/project managers/etc/etc/etc here who earn 200-300K, I can't even smell their continental car's smoke, but hey, It's All Relative.

++++

PEOPLE, give this guy a break. How many of you graduated and attained sudden enlightenment about what you wanna do in your life? You chose your tertiary and bachelor courses only with a half-informed mind and a vaguely-formed perception based on your observation, IMAGINATION, and HEARSAY.

You may be doing well right now, and I am happy for you, but did you get there immediately? Was it not with trial and error, and perhaps a lot of luck? So, big deal if this guy doesn't know now what is front office and back office. For the MAJORITY of you, were you fantastically better informed when you were in his position? At least he came out to ask a honest question in search of hopefully a honest opinion.

From what I see, most of the older guys want to put the younger generation down. Not surprising since they are coming out to get their jobs.

So... having good oratorical and presentation skills equals having no substance...
I really really agree with you there.

I used to work in a bank dealing with securities and futures. I seen alot of graduates from UOL Banking and finance working in banks as credit or operations officers. Its a stable job with a decent income every month but i notice you said you have been trading for a while. Why not do it full time and try venturing out of the norm of getting a 9 to 5 job?

If successful, you will find yourself the financial freedom where your classmate/friends will envy.

I can't said i'm extremely successful but i have already earn my first 500K within the year. i have to warn you though, its quite stressful at times when things are not going your way and trading is very addictive. I find myself not able to leave my LCD screen when i first started out in forex exchange and that is the main reason i quit my full-time job. I can moved on to futures trading for the past 1 year though

My career path (3 years): Operation Officer>Dealer>Full-time local at home

Cheers

I believe in your earning thru Forex as I do have friend who really made very much more than that.

Got to be cautious that if luck is not on your side, it will burn a deep hole into your pocket.

Nevertheless, I'm glad that you done well in trading.

Do you know of friends who have burnt deep holes in their pockets? For each friend who made "very much more than that", how many other friends have burnt holes? Is it luck or is it skill?

No, i earn the most through futures trading and yes its very very risky. I treated Forex as a learning platform as you can't really lose big nor win big here unless u play a very high stake game.

Mr Anonymous

Great inspirational speech

Was bothering me if I should further my studies in Economics and Finance as I'm nearing 24 and being too used to work as an Insurance Broker, I forgotten my career target, I forgotten promises with my friend to venture this path together. Maybe I didn't forget by accident. But by purposed.

Not to mentioned, I flung my English Language since Primary one. Secondary 5, i pass for the first time. Yes i'm academic streamed. I'm good at nothing but only Maths and Physics.

I love Physics, hate Maths. But i love Statistic, graphs, quantitative methods. So i tried means and ways to research about the requirements to be IB. After knowing all the requirements, i got my career path plan out bit by bit. I even graphed it out with sticky notes beside each and every point what i NEED to do in order to advance into next step.

However, i felt disgusted to know how the Banking society goes about when my friend became a junior IB with an 'O' level cert. Not because he is proficient in English or Maths. But he just happened to know a person inside and got in.

Worst, his senior collegues are MBA in Econs or Honors 1st class in Econs and Finance from Cambridge, London University of Econs LSE. How the hell am i comparable with lousy English and notorious school records. Do i have good relation with insiders? Do i have good education from start? I've got none. And there i had the answers to why i forgotten my career target. Is because I chose to.

It's too late for me to start. The society is just too realistic to be true. In the end, i'm still an IB (insurance broker).

Blessed and be blessed,
Des

Trading full-time at home can be extremely boring. I was a full-time trader for 1 year plus and now I'm deciding to go back to work for somebody. No problem, the future boss can raise his voice at me but hey, I know a job is not something that I have to have. It becomes "good to have" and I won't be stressed out anyway.

Life is not just staring at the screen and having "candlesticks" as friends. You got to meet real people. Take your job as something you do in addition to trading.

Luck is never a factor for success in trading. If you think luck plays a part, you are better off "donating" your money to RWS or MBS.

It's sheer HARD WORK, my friend.

really? so i can hire people who will WORK HARD and make billions for me?

I guess your big boss is under this category "hiring hard working people to earn billions while he sit back and pay you a lousy pay"

Maybe because i'm a married man with my 1st born (4months). i feel that i can really dedicate myself to my family under this situation and I can't really see myself going back to working for other people unless i go bankrupt trading... haha and to the person who feels trading is down to luck, guess you're not in the trading sector because, trading is about identifying a pattern which you can utilize to your advantage. Of cos the trend might change but its like buying big/small in casio only the stakes are higher.

can start with a kim eng forex acct. Cheap start-up

Thanks alot sir. i learnt alot through what u have typed. it really inspire me and i will definately do more research in what i can do in order for me to go into this role in IB. Thanks :)