i am an honors graduate from one of the local universities. Gotten into deans' list couple of times, did an overseas stint at a european university and participated actively in some academic activities. my tutors know me by name and the deans write letters of recommendation for me. gotten into some average bank to do a senseless internship and regretted not getting anywhere else instead.

now im looking for a job. but i dont feel confident even with my CV, because i am average. I know the finance literature well, i know the terminology, i've got my personal valuation models built complete with codes. i felt i've got everything when i'm in school.

but that's because competition was school-wide. a couple of hundreds.

now i step into the working world with doubts. competition has stiffened, hundreds of times. my CV is compared not across Singapore but throughout the world. people everywhere are looking for jobs. graduates are everywhere.

it leaves me helpless sometimes, when i compare myself to others outside. whats so special about me?

eric, one word of advice for you.
you're not competing with just the people around you. instead, you're competing with the world. the recruiter has to find something special about you, not just any "i'm inspired by the quick pace of life in FO, or i have experience in my own trading account." you need to be SPECIAL. find that quality in you that nobody else has, at least in the people around you right now. use that quality to convince HR that they will regret if they lose you.

remember, its not just "i'm diligent in my work. i'm careful with numbers. i'm a team worker."
HR probably has 999 reponses like that out of that 1000 applications. Inspire them with your one quality and back your claim with solid instances. And should they not appreciate that, simply walk away because it will be their loss instead.

Good luck!

AP

I had been working in bank most of my working life. From back to mid to front office. the transition is near to impossible and I would not encourage anyone to try it unless you are prepared for the worst which is what happened to 99% of those who tried-- that is to struck in back office clearing settlement for FO forever (there used to have a saying, you start in ops, you rot in ops). For the thousand of young grads out there who wants to join front office as a trader or investment banker who earn more than doctor, lawyer or even admin officers of their ages, ask yourself "who does not want that and why is it have to be you among the thousands to grab it ?" I have came across many many grads like Eric who aspired to be FO but don't know how and in no way getting nearer to the goal. my advice will be "don't try because many (99%) had tried and flopped" It is not something like the common advice "if you try hard enough, you will make it". This does not apply here. Age is also a factor (not when you are near 30 previously doing other unrelated stuff). some of the common lousy methods include
1) Study a MBA (from half -past- six universities)
2) study a CFA or do a CPA
3) Get into investment bank backoffice and try to snake through to the front (it works only for maybe 0.1%)
4) Do own trading and tried to prove that you are a great trader. (No one interested in your trading anyway)
5) show a lot of "A+" in academics results

For more reliable methods...... I will post again if anyone wants

Thanks sir for the repy. I would really appreciate what are the reliable methods so I have a target or something I can look forward to. Thanks alot

the easiest way is to have a friend who has the power to hire and is willing to help you. he will get you into a junior position and influence your career progression.

but he probably has hundreds of similar requests...

give up lah.

-another guy

Don't listen to this guy.
NEVER give up what you feel is worth pursuing.

Like another guy say having a friend or father inside definitely help but my guess is that most people here do not have and that is why they are still in this forum. My rmore reliable methods will increase your chance to get into front office by 100% from 1% to 2%.... isn't it great ? you have now 98% instead of 99% of failure. I am not being sarcastic here but really no matter what you do, the odds are very against you. I am assuming here you have no connection at all.

Ok. remember front office people are like exclusive club members and to join them is like a club deal-- either you are in, or you are out. If you are out, you will always be blocked at the door, no matter how close you are e.g middle office. So the idea is to get in through the weakest link into the club house. Therefore, it is no point for you to be the top performer in the settlement department, holds MFE/CFA/CPA/MBA, straight A students , best engineer in town, best computing knowledge etc.... than an lowly paid dealer in the smallest brokerage house.

Front office normally refer to dealers, traders, treasury sales, investment banker, fund manager (in Asset Mgt house and so much in banking) etc.... among them the pay scale, standard, demand/supply, barrier of entry differ by a lot a lot. An oil trader in top notch bank earns millions of dollar while a house dealer in a small local brokerage barely take home $2000 monthly. However, they are all called front office personal, they are all watching markets using Bloomberg/reuters, they are all doing sales in 1 form or another (difference is in the ticket size), they all attend conference and market talk, they all speak same language e,g long/short, mine/yours, pips/basis etc.., they all swear in the dealing room, they all go drinking everyday etc...

so if you are an average grader from ordinary university with no connection/knowledge/relevant experience, go and join the easiest FO position regardless of how low the salary is. As mentioned, you can join as a house dealer in brokerage, future broker, money or oil broker.... if all else fail, join brokerage as a remisier and get to know the who-who in the market. Get into the dealing room in any bank or brokerage 1st as an intern, coffee boy, trader assistant, research analyst, temp staff, trainee etc..... just secure a leg inside 1st. Always fight to be a temp trainee in the FO than to be perm team manager in operations, bossing over 10 men, if given 2 choices. Most of the above do not require fanciful degrees from Oxbridge or MFE/CFA, just an ordinary degree with CMFAS module 1 and 6 for some (which any tom, dick and henry can easily take and pass) will do
this first step of getting in is always the hardest and most sacrifice (in pay, security ... etc) are made.

After you get in, you are one of the club member... the next step (much easier now) is to connect with other "higher-level" FO people in position of your choice be it swap trader, credit trader, investment banker, fund manager, derivative trading, structuring, money market, treasury sales etc ... then next is to connect to the FO of better house...example from local brokerage to local bank, from local bank to European bank, from European bank to US consumer bank, then finally to US investment bank , example only, not to say which is better.... long way to go for career building

i think it's easier to build another Osim or Hyflux from scratch.

Thank you for your sincere advice. Can u further elaborate where can I start from? I don't wish to go on the wrong track. Thanks.

and i was told that i can start from private banking or RM role in the bank? is this true

As i said, start from the weakest link you can find. Dealer in local brokerage be it stock, future, oil, money market is one of the many of them. RM role is another but bear in mind that each path leads to a different function in front office although the lines can be blurred sometimes as you get more senior. Again, age is an important factor. You have to be young to go through these cycles, not when you are in mid 30s.

A RM role normally starts in mass market (say <50k), followed by the slightly affluent sector(50k to 200k), then the priority banking (>200k), then more elite priority banking (>1.5m), then private banking (>5m), then the ultra high networth (> 30m). the AUM is just an estimate and different bank segment slightly different and calls by different fanciful names.
The path for this is more straight forward and this "front office" role is one of the easiest to enter although some people may argue that this is not. The possibility of branching out to trader/fund manager/investment banker is not high (although still higher than if you are completely out of banking) but some still make it to become Treasury specialist, FX strategist, Investment councillor etc. These roles are still contained within the consumer bank, not investment bank but they are already 1 step closer given their close co-operation to traders, structurer, fund manager trying to sell them all sort of nonsense to sell to retail clients..... and as Singapore moves toward becoming a "private banking hub--Switzerland of the East", these RMs, IC, specialist will gain in importance, even beating traders, in term of compensation, presitage and potential.....

Oh ok. Understood :) I'm currently 25 this year. I guess it is still possible for me to go into all this cycles? I'm intending to gain some relevant experience this year before getting my deg next year. Cos I'm currently in the govt sector so I hope to get into the right working environment. Sorry if I have asked 'ignorance' questions. Cos I need someone experience enough to guide me. Thanks

Ntu eee or sim uol for banking jobs
 

HI,

I am currently an NSF, about to ORD in 5 months.

I am keen to find out my degree in EEE with a minor in economics or business would help me get into investment banking?

Would topping it up with a CFA or CAIA help?

I was thinking to transfer to SIM UOL BSc in Banking and Finance from NTU EEE. What do you guys think? I just need some opinions from different people.

Yes, I have read your earlier posts on getting a step in, is that the only way?

You can definitely get into a bank but be realistic you won't be a trader or investment banker. Start in ops and move to consumer sales or rise up in ops. This is your best bet. I know of people who have dip and UniSim UOL degrees who are making good income of 100k.

Dude, I know people from UOL who are making 2.5k as well.

So my question is other than contacts, it isnt possible to be a investment banker with my current situation?

nothing is impossible. but even to a 1st class hons student local uni its a bit hard to be ibanker ( i assuming u want to go front office)

perhaps u can research on which role u want to be.
be more specific. do u want to be deal with M&A or u want to be trader?
if trader what kind of trader. commodities, forex ?

suggest u join those smaller firms/brokerage 1st

for example my fren got 1st class hons in engineering and he got in as investment banker. He took part in a lot of forex trading competitions and got into finals. So i think it helps a lot , his 1st class from NTU might not be enough to got him the job.

Anything is possible. You can also strike toto. Dude, I've given you a best bet advice which I myself would heed if I were in your shoes. Start in ops.

Or you can do insurance or property.

so you guys are telling me to go for NTU eee with a business minor?

I know what i want, I want to be an investment banker, dealing with commodities/forex.

The big question now is NTU EEE / SIM UOL is better for me in terms of getting a banking career.

I dont mind starting out with insurance. I already planning to work as a financial planner or insurance agent during my university days as I have studied a few CFP modules.

Are you guys in the banking industry?

do you know the difference between a trader and an investment banker?

anyway, to answer your questions, SIM UOL should be better, but only just slightly.

good luck.

i knew what i wanted too - to be filthy rich. i knew how i wanted to go about doing it too - start as an office boy in a casino and rise up to the top as a CEO, then build my own casinos in LV, Macau and Singapore. i knew exactly the steps to do it.

and now i'm still here.

:)

Only slightly. How come?

Is it true that when you grad, your employers look at your grades and where your degree is from?

If not I would just go back to NTU EEE, slog my ass off to get good results and head to MAS.

Trader is trading for the company whereas investment banker does more of the buy/sell side regarding mergers etc. Please enlighten me. I am alright with these 2 jobs, but I think I prefer being a trader more.

why are you so sure that MAS will hire you?

They have this graduate programme that they accept fresh graduates from all discipline. The only thing is I have to do well in order to get in.

ARe you sure you can do well?

The other thing is that government agencies tend to value academic results a lot. They will also look at your A and O levels results. So if MAS is considering 2 top students from NTU EEE and you are one of them, the one with a better past results will likely be selected.

Well, I cant be 100% sure.

True and I screwed my O's.

I am the one that answer Eric on the more reliable methods and this is my 1st reply since then for confusedarmydude. (I shall call myself advisor) As mentioned previously, I am from the banking sector. I have never been into MAS but then dude, what made you think MAS will hire you even if you are 1st class from anywhere ? THe interviews are quite stringent although not as bad as investment banks. 2nd, do you know most of the departments in MAS are dealing with regulation and nothing to do with real investing and trading. Chances are if you were to join them you will join one of the supervision/regulation department and whole day watching over compliance in financial sector which is very boring. THe only department that do some trading is the department that determining the SGD rate and they buy/sell in the FX market to place SGD into a certain band as a monetary tool. That is hardly called a trader and the compensation differs vastly from a true prop FX trader in a bank although all traders in SGD cross have to kowtow to them as they are the ones who move the market.
I would suggest this to any of young grad or grad to be, give up the dream of being a trader or investment banker, the odds are just too high against you. Most if not all of you average students will waste time and effort going after something that is never meant to be yours and once you pass 30 and look back, nothing much is being achieved and will be in future years. If getting rich young is your goal, stick with this goal and open your eyes for other opportunities rather than craving for trader and investment banker roles whole day.

Completely agree with what advisor said. I think someone else also said it's easier to build another Osim or Hyflux from scratch. Do that!

Habib especto
 

Yes. Look at the weekend paper on Ivan Lee, the Thai Express guy. I think he was my school mate in Uni days more than 10 years back. He sold the business for around $70million or so I cannot remember at age of 35. Which trader/investment bank can do that ?

Thai Express is one of those that succeeded big time ($70mil!). Some other businesses make a decent amount (>$100k/yr, for e.g.). Most others fail within 5 years.

Having said that, don't be afraid to fail. But you must learn from your mistakes and ideally have good teachers/backers (parents or in-laws who run businesses themselves). If you run your business well, you get rewarded with, say, >70% of the revenue you generate. Whereas if you work for other people, you may only be getting <30% of your revenue contribution (because the boss gets 70%).

Just my two cents on people wanting to get into the banking industry. The industry is elitist, you cannot change that as all the ivies and oxbridge will have a step ahead of you when you want to go for a front office job. Another thing is that the headcount for front office jobs in Singapore is really small. It is a small country, if you are thinking of M&A, Corp Finance etc it is only a handful of jobs available. For S&T, chances are slightly better as there is a lot more headcount, however not for stock (equities) especially Singapore equities (the market cap is too small) compared to HK, AUS, Shanghai. For FI, you might have some chance in FX, however for other FI products your chances are quite slim.

Overall, Singapore is a private banking hub. Hence, my advice to all aspiring to work in a bank in a front office capacity would be to go through the wealth management or private banking route. If you are still adamant in wanting an investment banking front office job, my advise is to go somewhere else. Look at why all the big banks base their Ops or back office function here (centre of excellence etc), there is a reason...

Anyway, I have rattled on quite a bit now, wish you guys all the best. Remember to always be polite, speak properly and be professional, just my observation.... Take care all.

Thanks for the useful advice. Read so much from the seniors and i guess it's really tough to break into IB FO. Are u able to tell me more on wealth management and private banking FO does? Where do I start to get into this role? Thanks

To do sales you have to look good. It's just a matter of keeping a lookout for the recruitment ads. You can also try emailing the banks directly but success rate will be pretty low but not impossible.

Why should they hire a SIM-UOL grad if they have ivies and oxbridge grads applying for the position? The only advantage you have over these ivies would be relevant deal experiences esp in Asia given your basic grounding in English and Mandarin through previous hires/internships.

This is what I recommend:

Start from regional boutiques as a summer analyst, get deal experience from mid-market banks and eventually move laterally to BBs as an associate.

Keep in mind a lot of hard work is required - knowledge on valuations models, proficiency in Excel - as in being able to use Visual Basic to program marcos, familiarity with Bloomberg/CapitalIQ/Thomson, familiarity with financials etc etc. You will learn most of the concepts in school (precedent transactions, comparable multiples, CAPM, DCF, Gordon's growth etc) BUT learning how to apply them in rl (Excel modelling, explaining to your MD etc) is on a wholly different league.

You NEED to do well academically. SIM-UOL is fine, but at least a high 2nd upper/1st class degree. Anything lower is a no-go as you'll be pigeonholed into the 'dumb' applicant pool. Also, you NEED to brush up on your industry basics (who are the BBs, who is KKR, Blackrock, Carlyle Group) as well as your overall presentation/interview skills.

Google wallstreetoasis.com to see your competition. S'pore kids are nowhere near that level. Try if possible, crash NTU/NUS/SMU networking fairs and introduce urself to recruiters/bankers. of course some might get annoyed but you'll make a good impression as u're from a different school who bothered to attend. Get their business cards as well and follow up.

For interviews, assuming u've done well enough to land one, expect tough local competition from ntu/smu/nus kids who know their pitchbook/valuation stuff. (Some are as clueless as the guy next door though, and get kicked out early)

Oh and for regional boutiques dun expect a high pay. The most important takeaway is the deal experience. Dun complain about the working hours too. 2-3am workdays are common. Sometimes u'll even end up pulling all-nighters and surviving on Starbucks just to get the pitchbook out.

Oh and don't listen to some of the bs that the people here are spouting. Horizontal xfer from BO/MO is almost impossible. Dun count on it. Only way into FO is not to end up in MO/BO in the 1st place.

Seems tough? Well if you are hungry enough you will get there, no matter how high the mountains are or how deep the sea.

Study hard, work hard and enjoy life.

Thanks for the advice. I'm in a major dilemma now as I will be completing my degree next year and I will be 26. I have no relevant experience as I'm with the RSAF now. My Bond will complete this year august. Isit better for me to leave this august and look for relevant job that is able to give me the experience while continuing studying part time or should I just complete my studies den look for the job as a fresh grad. Really kinda bother about this. Any kind advise? Thanks

why work with the bank? you slog as hard as a financial advisor

Circle of Financial Advisors Singapore

This guy is right.

Deal experience > degrees.

Also, don't cry if you work until 4am at night. Big-4s work until 4am but only get 3k a month, so consider yourself lucky.

BO/MO->FO = Impossible

I suggest all prospective white collar slaves start looking at regional botiques ->> MMs and then BBs, and if you are lucky BB-> PE/HF --> GOD

So is it advisable for me to leave the force in aug to look for the relevant job that provide the right experience while doing my part time degree at the same time?
Anyway what does MM stands for?

MM = mid-market banks

BB = Bulge-Bracket Banks (big-name investment banks)

PE = Private Equity

HF = Hedge Fund

Note: There're different classes or prestige of 'boutique' banks. Rothschild is a top-notch investment house which is boutique, yet highly reputable.

Cheers

Thanks for the classification. Sorry for my ignorance but can i check what type of banks are under each classification? Thanks

Don't mind me chiming in but google actually gives u a pretty good idea.

BBs are firms like Barclays
PEs are firms like KKR and Carlyle

correct me if im wrong.

I'm in a major dilemma now as I will be completing my degree next year and I will be 26. I have no relevant experience as I'm with the RSAF now. My Bond will complete this year august. Isit better for me to leave this august and look for relevant job that is able to give me the experience while continuing studying part time or should I just complete my studies den look for the job as a fresh grad. Really kinda bother about this. Any kind advice? Thanks

Dear Eric
 

Dear Eric,

How long have you been with the RSAF? Before you quit your job with the RSAF, have you given careful thought to why are you quitting? Are the reasons due to pay (low?), or working hours (high?), or lack of respect (rank, esp when talking to senior officers?) etc etc etc?

If the reasons are a combination of the above, then my advice is not to quit your job. In ib, especially with a boutique, you start out with super low pay, approx 50% of what your peers get in BBs, you work like a dog during the day and when your wife/kids are sleeping, and you have no pride when your MD barks at you to fetch coffee from the nearest starbucks every morning.

the only valid reason for you to quit the RSAF is that you have 0 future staying with them. Exciting promotion opportunities are only provided to scholar-officers and all others are mere stepping stones for them to command and control. In contrast, successfully landing a job in ib and eventually PE/HF would almost guarantee you a 6-figure annual salary before you hit 40. Hell, even way before that for those that start early.

Now the only question is how HUNGRY are you to get a job in IB? Are you desperate enough to quit your job, desperate enough to study hard in school and desperate enough to venture out of your syllabus and learn the relevant skills (see above post)? The decision is yours to make, not anyone's.

Yes? you think its easy?

Talk only and no action would only get you as far as the nearest bus stop instead of the CBD. There is a reason why a career in FO is so lucrative. They recruit from the best by the best. If you dont start out among the best, work/study your ass off to get to the best.

P.S. judging by your level of knowledge you wont even survive the initial resume/CV screening, not to mention the subsequent interviews, aptitude tests and assessment centres. If i were you, I would think twice before quitting the RSAF. Its possible that you end up working/studying your ass off and still NOT land a FO role.

The best bet for you now is to graduate with a good honours and apply to a masters program(NOT MBA, you cant get in) in a target school in the UK/US. I know some BBs recruit from schools like warwick, lse and maybe nottingham/manchester. NYU would be a good bet too.