was etrical
 

Yes, the global MBA ranking tables will be a good start to shortlisting potential B-schools. Try the FT rankings. Else, talk to alumnito get a real feel. For example, a school may rank very well in terms of graduates' career and salary progression, but this may be due to reasons unrelated to the school. E.g., if the school offers many scholarships to government officials who have been earmarked for high positions, these graduates will undoubtedly fly high very soon in their careers. And tht isn't because of the MBA.

But based on the profile you have shared, it will be tough getting an offer from the premier B-schools. In fact, based on your profile, it will even be difficult to stand out from the applicants to NUS, NTU, SMU. there are probably 10k+ applicants to NUS, NTU, SMU each year; while the eventual intake is around 300 - 500. At top tier B-schools, the intake rate will be even more competitive.

I think the point is that given the effort/opportunity cost vs reward, post graduate study is a no-brainer. Some people dont mind spending 100k to buy a toyota altis, but sting on self investment e.g mba study, grad study. I see that people who take risk in the form of grad study, running own business, taking overseas assigment 5 years ago are doing much better than those who take little or no risk.

I was the previous poster that you were replying to. Thank you for the comment.

NUS/NTU/SMU are totally out of my aim. I'm targetting top MBA programs in Asia, planning to work overseas too. And I think to maximize the ROI of doing a MBA, I have to start as early as possible. By the time the programs starts I should have accumulated 3 years of working experience.

And you're right, my profile is rather weak with only a pass from NUS and 650 for GMAT, ppl around me all lol at me because i set my long-term goal at investment banking in bb.

What I can spin are my extensive international exposure, a few succesful business deals that I have made across Asia Pacific region for my MNC, and my continuous efforts in charity works. I have a good story to tell how my finance sparks were triggered, where I am now, where will I be 5 and 10 years later and how am I working towards it. I realize that many ppl don't even have a goal for his life. And I spent more than 1 year to realize mine, and draft it very specifically and ensure it makes the most logical sense. Hopefully all these will make me stand out from other candidates.

IBs are superficial. They don't have the time to interview so many and hence rely on HR to do the CV filtering.

Analyst program: Minimum 2nd upper + strong internship experience. Your CV won't pass this.


Associate program: Reputable MBA. Your CV won't pass this.


If you really want to get into IB of a BB, you need to network. Find some way of getting to know people in the industry. Slowly make friends up to someone who can call the shots. Check all your contact points (distant relatives, your wife side as well)

You're right, as of now my CV won't pass any of them, that's why I need a reputable MBA to rebrand myself. The network in investment banking that a school can provide is one of my criteria in selecting its program.

Thank you for the info anyway, really appreciate that.

You want top MBAs in Asia. Based on FT rankings, that'll be:
1) Insead
2) Hong Kong UST
3) Indian Institute of Management
4) Indian School of Business
5) NUS
6) NTU
I suppose you're only looking at Insead?


At top MBA schools, your undergraduate results and GMAT score isn't going to be a major differentiator. I mean, what's the big diff between 600 and 800? International exposure, closing business deals and finance sparks ain't going to get the school excited about you either. These factors are given. I reckon that at least 70% of the applicants have this profile.

What can set you apart may be your charity works. Show that you are a socially responsible and driven person, in addition to be a motivated finance person wannabe.

1st choice is HKUST (prefer to live and work in HK), then INSEAD and CEIBS.

Thank you for the comment ;)

Out of that list, the only school you shld consider is Insead if you want to get into IB at a Bb

INSEAD is actually much more of a consulting feeder than IB.

- consultant

Honestly, save your money and find an opportunity to start a business. MBA is a thing of the past.

It's easy to start a business, but is it easy to make positive net profits consistently and make enough not to regret the time and effort expended?

That's very easy for an armchair quarterback to say. But am not sure if you have really thought thru it when you put out a throwaway line like that.

I have an MBA and that's the exact calculus I had to navigate before I jumped into it.

Long and short of it is, both paths are not easy. But if you put in a huge amount of time and effort for both, it is a lot easier and less risky to earn SGD150k to SGD500k a year via the MBA route than via a business route.

Yes, you have to get a top GMAT score, navigate yourself to a top MBA school, and pull out all your connections and your family's and friend's connections to get a good job, but once you get there, you are getting SGD150k to SGD500k a year just via salary and bonus.

To draw that quantum in business is possible but really not easy. And unless u have mentors and strong financial backing, its not easy to succeed. If you start small, there is a good chance you stay small, and never get the chance at SGD150k to 500k salary ever. If you swing for the fences, its very possible for you to lose your first SGD200 to 500k within 6 months. Then the question is whether you have enough financial backing and self belief to try again.

Now if you swing for the fences and you succeed, then the income is likely to be in the millions (which is possible but unlikely in front office banking - need to hit MD which takes many years, and may not be in reach for many).

Investing in yourself is better than investing in your business.

You sure about that?

Would you share where you are now after you got your MBA?

Am in front office in a bb. But believe me, it was an incredibly difficult and frustrating process to get here since i was a career switcher .

But you made it. Was it worth it?

well its worked out for me, so i cannot complain.

but then again, success and failure are both within the spectrum of possibilities. the key to not regretting a decision is to establish, on a pre-decision basis, a set of potential outcomes and probabilities of each decision branch, then where ever you end up, you do not regret because u recognize that it is within the spectrum of possibilities you had allowed for when you made the decision to go in.

so if i ended up with a $4k to 5k pm job, i still would not have allowed myself to regret the decision because its a potential outcome I had envisaged going in

Mind sharing your income level? Is it true that FO people can make 500k and more a year?

Possible but Heavily dependent on bonus.

Share?
 

It sounds impressive. Mind sharing where were you previously from, what have you done (aside from MBA) and finally landed at FO in a bb?

Thanks.

Not directly after MBA and it also depends on which FO role you are in. Portfolio, job performance and economic cycle.

Assume an associate role (straight after MBA) in a bulge bracket investment bank. M&A, ECM/ DCM. Your base salary would be around $140-150k per year. Assume a normal year bonus, total compensation is only about about $300k+

Above 500k total compensation is more like SVP, D, MD level. And again largely dependant on deal flow.

Yes that's exactly right . Am referring to vp payscale. At D, possible to hit high 6 digits, and MD can hit 7 digits.

Then again bonus these days are more skimpy ...

Whoa high 7 digits? Do you know what you're talking about?

How do you get in? I am an engineer who just completed my MBA. I am thinking of switching to IB.

Read again, I said "At D, possible to hit high 6 digits, and MD can hit 7 digits."

No one mentioned anything about high 7 digits.

And all figures cited are total comp numbers including bonuses.

Frankly, that's not the easiest switch cos there are so many engineers wanting to do the same.

Its possible - I did that. But the internship is absolutely key, and you need to hunt it down by whatever means possible. Cold calling, family and friends, alumni etc etc etc. For me, I heard about an opening at an IB thru a friend, and I absolutely hounded the hiring manager shamelessly for weeks on end until they offered me the internship.

Reality is, there's got to be a degree of shamelessness in chasing these roles, because of the number of people applying for these jobs. If you can't beat them in credentials, just have to beat them in persistence.

And luck plays a big part as well. A lot of times, you hear of these roles thru the grapevine. Cos just relying on your career office is not sufficient for non-conventional CVs. But by being persistent, sometimes you create your own luck.

Remember, as an engineer, you are at a severe disadvantage compared to those who went into the MBA from banking RM jobs, or banking mid or back office roles , who are looking to get into the meatier front office roles via the MBA route. So you have to put in an extraordinarily greater effort in order to even stand a chance.

So pound away and good luck.

Thanks for the great advice. I'm another wannabe who wants to do the same. Could you kindly advise: if you were to do the same thing again, all things equal, what do you think is the theoretical chance of succeeding?

I would just want to hear your estimation of how much luck is needed. Thanks for all the great advice!

Very hard to say. If you know someone who can promise you an internship (even unpaid) in the area you want (even in a non-BB bank), that will help your chances greatly.

Depends on timing of your internship / graduation as well - if u graduate in 2006 or 2007, you'd have a fair chance as the average MBA grad from a top school received multiple offers upon graduation. If you graduate in 2008 or 2009, it would have been almost impossible.

Sorry I cannot be more exact - really is a crapshoot. Wasn't like I had a hundred options in my time. Was just going after hundred different leads and only had one offer, and that worked out.

To clarify, there are more roles in an IB than the typical corporate finance role.

As an engineer, you may have an advantage if you apply for more quant roles (e.g structurer, trader) Or, apply for an investment research role covering tech sector. In my team, half of them are engineers. Other half are grads with finance discipline. No one has a MBA. As the MD puts it, he doesnt have one and doesnt think it necessary to have one in our role.

I agree that mba is not needed from a knowledge perspective, and what u said makes sense for undergrad engineering students. But if u r already working as an engineer for a few yr, hard to see how u can navigate a mid career shift into one of the roles u mentioned above w/o a mba.

I can't resist but to say my 2 cents.

I'm an engineer who also got my MBA last year. Intially, I also have the aspiration to join IB etc for the $. But then I realize, it's an uphill battle. I decided to pursue doing what I am doing (procurement) and move into a banking institution. Pay is good. Better than outside. A D in IB can earn high 6 digits. The D in my department i guess earn half of that but still, a pay check of that amount still makes life comfortable. You may not drive a Bently but I'll still settle for a BMW or Jag. Plus you have less stress and you get to spend more time with your kids. If any retrenchment going on, IB goes first as we are the ones that save money and makes the whole system ticks. :) Moreover, the interview is less rigourous. You don't have to sit for test. Just need to know your stuff well and how to relate :D

Man. I got side tracked. And yes, MBA helps in securign the post. Else, they won't even want me as I have no industry experience. :D With everyone nowadays studying masters, degree value is diluted. Do the maths :D

Cool story . How did u manage to land interviews, internship and eventually your job. I hv a few engr friends who are struggling just to get an interview for an internship .

High 6 digits is 999,999. Or do you mean high 5 digits?

I joined as experience hire. Less than 8 years exp in my field.

1. Never give up. Keep trying. Your chances to be noticed is 1/20. Not that bad as long as you have experience. Will be good to have referral, that's when MBA course helps as MBA tends to have quite a number of finance people.

2. I had the fortune to be in 2~3 industries doing the same function. So I shot down immediately any excuse relating to 'no background experience in finance' as I have proven my adaptability.

3. Be passionate about your work.

It's annual package and not monthly salary.

Any idea whether MBA in NUS/NTU/SMU/INSEAD accepts Degree with only a 2nd lower/3rd class hons?

Your bachelor degree matters for little unless 1)you have no working experience, 2)little selling point, 3)degree obtained from correspondence studies.

2nd lower/3rd class/no honours doesn't matter when it comes to entry to B-school.

Im studying Materials Engineering in a local U and completing it next year. Intending to take an MBA maybe 3 years after work to get out of engineering badly because i have no interests in engineering stuff

Why not you do non engineering base job when you grad from your degree? Fresh grad can go anywhere quite easily due to zero experience and typically 'cheap' labour. That way you can add value to yourself when you do your MBA.