prospects of a scholar
 

Hi, i currently have a place in an overseas uni, and will most likely be going on a scholarship. Would like to know what kind of prospects i would have after i finish serving my bond (6 years), by which time i'll be 31. I've heard that when you've worked in a company for more than a few years, subsequent interviews and job applications will look more at where you worked previously than where you've studied previously. How true is this? would i be "restricted" and "categorised" based on where i worked? also, it would be good if i can have feedback about studying overseas on a scholarship. Would greatly appreciate responses. thanks :)

ps. i hope i posted in the right section. If not, please advice where to post this thread. thanks

You'll need to post more info such as,

1)Where are you going to study
2)What are you studying
3)Who will you be bonded with and to work as what
4)What sort of scholarship it is

Answers will vary greatly depending on your reply. I'll wait till you have replied before my inputs. Thanks!

I will be studying Mechanical Engineering at University of Michigan, Ann Arbor under DSTA scholarship. bond is 6 years. does that help?

In addition, can i know how much value an overseas education adds when looking for a job. Assuming that i leave after the bond, does it really matter if, e.g. i get a masters from stanford or mit? will they look at work experience more or education?

thanks for the reply!

If your family can afford it, try not to take up this scholarship. As you alluded to, after 6 years, your CV will not be impressive at all.

The best scholarships in my opinion are: SAF overseas scholarship and PSC overseas. But you have to make sure you are among the best candidates, so you get to have high CEP and put on fast track to reach your potential early, eg BG in SAF and Perm Sec in PSD. I'm not sure how you can find that out, though.

University of Michigan is quite a reputable uni and beats NTU and NUS hands down with regards to obtaining work overseas (if you're passionate in the mechanical engineering field). The bond is quite long though and especially with DSTA. 6 years is a really long time and you'll find that you'll be behind your peers (doing finance) in career development and pay.

Like the above poster, if your family can afford it, try not to take up the bond, do your engineering at uni michigan, work in the states a little, do your masters from mit or stanford and you should lead a comfortable life. Bottom line is, if you plan to go the engineering route, it's wasteful to do so in Singapore. They are not regarded highly. Working in the states though is another thing if you remain in this line.

If i can't afford to go overseas on my own, and can only do so on the scholarship, would it be better to stay local or go overseas, and come back to serve the bond?

Whatever u do will involve TradeOffs.

Let me give u an example. NUS/NTU give scholarships to folks from India to do undergrad in exchange for a bond. Our perception in
India is that it looks like a good deal. However, I did an undergrad in India (top school like IIT) in engineering. Got scholarship
in Sg easily for grad studies with no bond. I was free to do whatever I wanted after studying while those who got bonded will be stuck
for few years. I personally think that a top school in India gives a better chance than Scholarship with Bond in Singapore.

Similarly, a good and useful degree from NUS mite be better than Michigan + Bond. If you do well in studies, u can always do MS from
abroad in future.

Now, if u get a good job with a great future, Bond is not that bad. But if the job is bad, u will feel stuck and frustrated and feel
that many who did not take scholarships are better off.

Again, bond for 2-3 years is ok. But 6 years will define your future. It will be hard to change after that.

Your option are UMich + DSTA with 6 years. It does not seem to a case on the positive side to me.

So, even though u mite be in US at 21, at 26 u mite find urself behind locals grads from SMU/NUS, especially MoneyWise. I left Singapore
since Engineering is not the thing to be in in Singapore.

Looking at the combo (DSTA + 6 yrs), I would not take it. But I am not sure if I could say the same when I was 18yrs old. I am 30 or so
now. So, based on my experience, I value my freedom way more than Singapore+BOND.

6 years is a long time and by the time you're done with the bond, DSTA experience may limit your options if you intend to change employment, particularly if you want to move into the private sector

how much can your family afford? are there (bond-free) scholarships/bursaries you can explore at the university to help with the fees and living expenses? would you consider a bank loan? (note that you will have to work REALLY hard at paying off the bank loan after graduation. it's an option, but you definitely need to weigh the risks. i know someone who has done this and it's really tough)

if your only option to study at u mich is the scholarship, then you will need to go into the deal with both eyes opened and be aware of the tradeoffs

thanks for all the feedback! but can anyone elaborate more about how the 6 years will define my future? i'm quite keen on getting an overseas education cos it'll be a change from the local system, which i don't quite like. but, as mentioned, the 6 year bond is quite daunting. i've considered loans, but it will certainly be tough, especially since everything hinges on getting a good enough paying job to pay off the loan + interests. and unfortunately there isn't financial aid for international students at umich. :( oh, does being a scholar help at all in the future?

I disagree. If you can't afford, I suggest it's better to do your studies here in sg than take a non-elite scholarship. Grad top in class and then work in the private sector. I can almost guarantee you'll have a brighter future than being a "farmer" scholar, and maybe much happier.

If possible, ask your sponsoring organization for a chance to speak with existing scholars and discretely probe for information from them. See how "high flying" they are.

-ex farmer scholar

I agree with this guy. I wrote that example of India and Sg. I personally dont think UMich will benefit u a lot more than NUS. Forget the ranking/reputation crap. If the bond does not give u a dream job (DSTA is ur top choice ?) , it will not be worth it. 6 yrs is a long time. It will be hard to convince employers to give u a job in a different area. Employers will not look at ur univ, they will look at ur experience.

What options do u have if u stay in Singapore ?? But if u study in SG, work hard and get top grades. If u have good grades, u can go abroad for MS or get a good job locally.

Better still, go n find out how DSTA is as an employer. Can u see a future there ? U shd not worry abt US n Umich. U can go there in future too. Think more abt what u will get at the end of it. One path is DSTA , the other is what u make of it .

--> i forgot to say i don't recommend this, but ultimately, the choice is yours

think about it from an employers point of view. what relevant experiences/special skills can you bring to the table after 6 years with DSTA? would suggest:

- try for another scholarship with more "transferable"/"exportable" experience.
- go for it without a scholarship if you parents can afford and work for awhile in the us after you graduate.

at the end of the day, what do you want to achieve at the end of the 6years?

your peers whom are as good as you and joined big banks and MNCs in the private sector after graduation would have a much broader outlook/experience and certainly make much more $ if they are top performers.

have fun! : )

Basically, when you take up a scholarship, you shouldn't be thinking about "leaving" after your bond because the whole idea is of a scholarship is that DSTA or any other company for that matter is trying to "chope" you. They are taking a risk that you will do well in your studies and then perform well in the assigned workscope to "repay" the company. In return, they pay for your Uni fees, plus allowance and all the misc bits and pieces that you see in your scholarship contract.

You should take up the scholarship with the mindset that the defence industry is really what you want to do for the very long term. And if this be so, the scholarship gives you a headstart over your peers in the same arena. Scholars get more opportunities and special assignments that broaden their exposure to prepare them for leadership roles in the future. Of course, these are essentially "tests" to see if the scholar actually makes the cut. Non-scholars do not get such opportunities.

In the dark background, your scholar status means your performance will be monitored and somewhat protected (e.g. minimum performance grade) unless you really fuc ked up and your boss is dumping you.

I am sure you know that as a DSTA scholar, you don't have to join DSTA per se to do project management. You can also join DSO, CSIT and even the uniformed services e.g. Air Log, Naval Log as a civilian executive. My take is that if you really want to protect your market value as an engineer, join DSO and do hardcore engineering technical work such as RF, Digital Hardware, Software etc. (But try not to get into "programs" because their subject matter is too sensitive for you to be of legal market value in the industry)

The other good choice would be to go into CSIT. They are into Infocomm research. Essentially, this is the technological arm of SID. Scholars such as yourself get the chance to join the Intelligence Officer (IO) Scheme upfront (Although i heard that recently, they are tightening the entry criteria for this scheme of service). This is a pension service and the renumeration is 2nd only to the Administrative Service - the only other remaining pension service, short of joining politics and the AO scheme is by invitation only. The pension scheme requires you to serve 8 years but then your bond already takes up 6 years. You serve well you get paid well. Comfortable living. What for take the risk of joining the financial industry where there is no guarantee of big bucks?

Think about what you have on hand. The chance to study at any University in the world that you can get into (ok la i admit the downside is must study the course they specify) and the earmark for a bright future.

> earmark for a bright future

Depends on how you define "bright future". It will never be bright if you aren't one of the elite scholars.

for the defence industry, there is only 1 type of undergrad scholarship whether you consider it "elite" or not - DSTA. unless PSC scholars e.g. OMS, PS etc wish to come into the defence arena.. the key point is that to become "elite", you have to also put in your own efforts. what is the minimum position to reach that you consider "bright"? DS? 2PS? PS? or just CEO or Director? CEO of DSO was "only" a LMS holder, NUS grad. Considered elite? the ex-CE of DSTA Mr Soh Khong Peng who has since passed away (obituary in today's Straits Times) was a former air-force officer (LTC if i m not wrong before he joined DSTA) from Air Log. "elite"?

its true that financial sector can offer you really really big bucks.. but what are the chances to hit that jackpot as compared to what the TS already have on hand even though it is financially less rewarding? how many people who choose financial sector end up with mediocre support roles that can be easily replaced by someone cheaper? bright?

LTC is no BG. Definitely not elite. In terms of income, definitely below the admin service superscales. Maybe barely scraping MR4. Just my guess.

If you wanna do real defence, be a US citizen and join a big defense contractor. That's real defense, bleeding edge technology, and big money.

hello.. CE-DSTA is a post DS appointment. Before SKP became CE, it was ex-Chief of Navy (2-star admiral) Richard Lim who held that post after serving as DS(TT).. the CE estab is 2 levels above a 2-star adm/gen.

Join US defence industry? you are getting out of point.

Why do they get ex navy to head DSTA? he was an elite SAF OS scholar right?

The fact that DSTA / Mindef DTTA scholars aren't up there says a lot about the pecking order of the various scholarships.

To OP: don't take up the scholarship, unless you are ready to feel "wasted" and 怀才不遇 all your life.

Do consider carefully before taking up a scholarship with such long bonds. The main draw for the scholarship is the overseas exposure and experience. Do note that for 4 years of overseas experience, you will be bonded 6 years locally in Singapore. Secondly, will the job scope and industry (defense) be of interest to you?

Let me share my personal experience with you. I was also awarded the PSC scholarship back in 1999 with a 4 years bond. I was attracted by the prestige (as was with most of my peers back then). Thankfully, my brother told me to reconsider and to study the field where I am most interested in. I declined the scholarship, got into NUS and signed up for their Student Exchange Programme where I spent 6 months studying in a overseas university. (I read that currently there are more programmes with up to 1 year.)

Upon graduation, I choose a job which gives me opportunities to travel overseas. Normally jobs with overseas travel, the pay is good, twice of what your average peers are earning. After spending 3.5 of my 6 years in my company overseas in China, Japan, Taiwan and Korea, here I am back to Singapore and ready to make a job switch.

I enjoyed every bit of my overseas exposure and the best part is I am interested in the industry I am working at. I learnt Japanese during my working years and have made many friends around the different countries and learnt many different business cultures.

So if you are considering for overseas exposure, do not only look at your education span but also beyond when you are working. The contacts and people you meet will greatly give your career a major boost. I'm not sure about the defense industry, but normally once you spend more than 5 years in the civil service, it's quite difficult to jump back into the private sector. Leaving the comfort zone is difficult once you reach the 30s as that is the time you may have mortgage loan to pay, family and young kids to support.

Hi all, thanks once again for your feedback. will have to sit down and think about this issue properly. but i do wonder how important is it to compare your salary to peers. got to do alot of reflection and discussions with more people. think it's abit hard to decide which area i'll really like 10-15 years down the road at the moment. after all, 10 years is almost my life up till now.

since you aren't sure, it's better not to get yourself into a bond.

Well I am a JC student and my views (hopefully not naive) are:

I always thought DSTA is a good place to start off one's career... as there are chances to utilize your engineering skills in defense systems (be it in DSO or DSTA, coming up with our unique defense technology etc...).

There are also chances for project management, using your technical skills plus managing people. Being a scholar, one will be given high profile projects, sent to courses and opportunity to rise faster than others. Though 6 years is long, at the end of it one should be in mid-management? Staying there long term maybe can rise to the position of director?

Even if one decides to leave, wouldn't the skill sets that he acquired there in terms of managing projects be sought after in the private sector? (though technical skills might not be relevant as defense systems are very niche and specialized in nature). What about being a technical consultant? CIO/CTO/COO of some organizations? or starting your own business engineering some products and selling it back to the SAF/DSTA? Aren't all these feasible career paths given's one good profile?

Well those are my thoughts, though i am not too sure whether those are right given my very young age. Is there any comments and advices on my views? is dsta scholarship really not worth taking up? it is a scholarship i am considering for too.

DSTA scholarship is very hard to get.

* Have at least 11 'A'-Level units
* Achieve 'A' grading for at least three H2 content-based subjects (Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry & Biology), and a good grade in General Paper (GP) or Knowledge Inquiry (KI)

Plus most likely need H3 at least merit... for smart ppl who are top of their cohort zz

DSTA scholars should be able to lead a comfortable life. Not lucrative, but comfortable.

These scholars will likely be groomed to succeed the current generation of appointment holders just one rung below the elite administrative service.

I would estimate that the Chief Executive of DSTA to be Superscale B in the old grade (approximately $800k to $900k p.a.) and you can work downwards from there.

You can refer to the post by whoever on 1 April 2011 at 09:34 AM and 02:32 PM, obviously an insider who knows what he is talking about.

When you pursue a career with an organisation, you should not be thinking of leaving, as a large part of your paycheck is tied to the uniqueness of your skill related to that organisation. In the same way, a banker cannot suddenly pop in to head a department specialising in radars.

Although the pay won't be as high as those at the apex of the financial industry, it is more stable and you can work till around 60, whereas many in the private sector are usually let go in their mid 40's and quickly turn to teaching just before they are axed so they can claim that they are taking a pay cut.

Hence if you compare lifetime earnings, it's not that much different compared to those who succeed in the private sector (that is, those who have succeeded in the first place).

Somebody mentioned the phrase 怀才不遇 in an earlier post. The definition of 才 is very different in different settings. The 才 of a DSTA scholar is more academic in nature but the 才 in the private sector (especially the engineering private sector) is very different.

Which 才 will be more likely to be promoted to General Manager if, after signing a multi-million contract, your big boss asks "Which one of you will bring Chen Lao Ban out to relax?"

Will it be the "academically smart 才" who can write a thesis on Landau's prime numbers, or the "street smart 才" who can write a thesis on Geylang's odd and even numbers, like the one below?

Mar 3, 2011
Probation called for poly student who was a pimp
By Khushwant Singh, Court Reporter
A NANYANG Polytechnic student pleaded guilty on Thursday to living on the earnings of three Geylang prostitutes in January this year.

it may be hard to get, but even so it doesn't mean it's good. as someone said earlier, go talk to DSTA scholarship holders who are still in service - if you like what you see, then by all means sign up.

How to work downwards from there? Whats DS, PS?

Anyone care to share the pay scale for stat boards, particularly DSTA? how far will a stat board scholar go? Considering stat boards have a very different career scheme compared to the civil service? they do not use MX/SR/MR?

tks

How to work downwards from there? Whats DS, PS?

Anyone care to share the pay scale for stat boards, particularly DSTA? how far will a stat board scholar go? Considering stat boards have a very different career scheme compared to the civil service? they do not use MX/SR/MR?

tks

DS is deputy secretary
PS is permanent secretary
They are the highest paid civil servants in the world, paid multiple times more than their counterparts in the lower ranked country.

Yes, please join for the right reasons. The money is good.

DSTA scholars are very well taken care of.
Go for it!!

What scholarship did you get? Some scholarships are worthless.

You forgot President's Scholar. SAF is 2nd to President's.

The prestigious President's Scholarship is not open for application. Winners are picked from SAF and PSC award holders. Other lesser scholars are not eligible. For example, you will never see a DSTA scholar win the President's scholarship.

actually i wonder why pple keep thinking of the President's-cum-SAFOS or -cum other PSC scholarship as the ultimate combination... i personally think there is one obscure scholarship that actually trumps that.. the GIC scholarship... that will really give you the chance to study at top oseas business school and work in a financial institution. excellent academic credentials plus relevant financial industry experience.. not forgetting well paid.. and excellent market value after your bond..

you are absolutely right (and getting a GIC scholarship is not any easier than PSC), on the assumption that finance (specifically investment management) is what one enjoys as a long-term career. for some, making a difference in our country as a policy-maker is more meaningful than just making money. if "market value" is the only yardstick of how "desirable" a scholarship is, the military scholars probably had it the worst...

yes GIC scholarship is good. quite impossible to get though. haha. 2nd choice will be MAS scholarship.

You are so wrong...

sees tespit
 

You are right in that at the end of 6 years, you'd be in middle management.. typically DSTA staff start at grade 6. If as a scholar you do well, in 4-5 years you would make grade 8 (senior engineer) and would have held the title of "project manager". Note that this title is not taken lightly in dsta context because it sounds trivial but you bear full responsibility for your project. You would then likely be seconded out (perhaps DrTech or MINDEF) or rotated within DSTA (unless of cse you express a strong desire to continue what you are currently doing) for more exposure to upper management (more "tests" for you). The main thing they are looking out for is your ability to make things happen out of your own initiative. Because that's the kind of leadership that they want. (actually what all organisations want)

Ok i have not heard of DSTA people becoming technical consultants on their own and providing services back to MINDEF (maybe i havent seen widely enough) though i have heard DSO people forming their own technical consultancies.. examples are LOOP (RF electronics), Dr Chew Siou Teck (icredo) and Dr Anthony Ng (d-crypt) and provided services back to the defence industry. But note that these people are very very established in their chosen fields, very well-known in the defence circle before striking out on their own. It may sound glamorous having your own consultancy but i've heard its very very tough to survive outside. nobody owes you a living.

again like i mentioned in my previous posts, you take up a scholarship BECAUSE you've already decided to make it your life-long career. Example, a teaching scholarship from PSC because you've already known early on you really really want to be a teacher or DSTA scholarship because you want to be an engineer in our defence industry. The scholarship thus makes your original choice sweeter because it gives you a headstart over your peers who want the same thing.

Its NOT the other way around where you become an engineer in the defence industry because because you took up the DSTA scholarship for watever reasons like: to study overseas, to make your parents proud, to go one up over your non-scholar sibling or whatever.

er.. sorry forgot to also add that the DSTA scholarship doesn't necessary mean you have to do engineering. there are usually a few spots for the sciences such as physics (but only 1 or 2 spots) maybe even (chem or bio related courses?) because they need to address DSO's needs for researchers in fundamental sciences as well. Dr Phua Poh Boon was a former local DSTA scholar in Physics. Went to DSO right from the start. World-class physicist. (not i anyhow say one. Keyword: Spirally-Varying Retarder)