To be honest your plan puts you from an area with a safety net to one without, and also makes no financial sense what so ever. Plainly cause

1. Your income of 120K is not high but not exceedingly, if one of you loses your job you will likely struggle with the monthly repayment + MCST + Prop tax etc which is about 3K to 3.5K per month. Assuming 600K 25 years @ 2.5% (And yes interest rates have gone higher before)

2. You want to buy a 99 year leasehold (err leasehold depreciates over time) for 1.2 Million and sell it 25 years later for 1.6M. How did you arrive at this figure? I have a freehold condo worth 1.1 M now West of SG, by that logic in 25 years it should be worth 2.5 Million and a small Condo in orchard would be 10 Million etc. No offence the figures you proposes are kind of washy and no one predicts 25 years in the future. (even the SG govt does dare not to commit)

Imagine if you sell your HDB now at CUV (Cash under valuation) buy a 1.2 M condo, market slumps (now worh 900K) and 25 years later worth 1 Million (Though I suspect less). How would that impact your future plans?

I am long term property investor and I can say your "forced savings plans" and future valuation figures are non too realistic. I would advise you to speak to your friends who are investment savvy in property.

Thanks for taking the time to write your comments.

I think our combined income of $120k pa is high enough to service a loan of $600k comfortably, even though rates may go up to 3%. If I lose my job, then that's a different matter altogether and I may need to downgrade to a 3 room HDB flat. But, like I said, our jobs are stable, trust me. We will only lose our job if we are paralysed.

About your point of depreciation, by the same logic, my 15 years old flat will also depreciate over time. Now it is worth $600k, in 20 years time it could then be worth $300k and eventually zero after all the lease is up. As for the condo, even though the value may go down from $1.2m to $1m, at least I would have enjoyed luxury condo living for 25 years. I will find a condo just next to an MRT station so that its value will remain strong even after many years as there will always be a chance that the condo will go for en bloc and I will definitely get more than $1.2m.

Your point of depreciation of HDB flats isn't really correct because number of years left on the lease isn't really factored into the 'valuation' of the house as HDB does SERS so it's almost like there's 'unlimited freehold'. I think it's a concept that exists only in Singapore. People expect and price into the market the fact that HDB will buy back the HDB units when it's old enough. So far i think the oldest flat now is not more than 40yrs (i might be wrong on this)?

But this is clearly different for leasehold private property. No one is going to buy back your property unless it's enbloc and that's an entire discussion and chances are much less slim. Number of years on leasehold private property is clearly factored into the price.

Seriously if you are paying so much for a property, the least you could do is get freehold unless you are buying a brand new leasehold 99yrs old one and planning to selling within 10yrs

If what you said about HDB SERs is correct, then it means private property prices will be supported by HDB prices.

I think in buying a condo, the most important thing is location. That is why I will be looking for a condo located next to an MRT station. I am searching in the West area which is near my parents' place. I did some research and I found the Lakeside District to be very appealing. The 3 condos I will want to consider seriously are: The Lakeshore, Caspian and The Lakefront Residences. These condos are new / brand new and located near the Lakeside MRT station. The lake area will also be developed with new attractions in the coming years.

Wish me luck in selling my flat fast.

Now is a good time to upgrade. Just remember that you are buying to stay in your condo and not to speculate like property investors. You just buy and stay in it, do not be so concerned with the value. As long as you can pay your mortgage, you will be fine.

It is a good time to upgrade because your HDB flat price is already high now and will not go any higher. If you don't sell now, prices may go down and you will get less for downpayment. By selling at $600k, you are locking in your profit and use the $600k for downpayment of the condo.

If your condo costs you $1.2m and your loan is only $600k, you are actually very safe since your loan to value (LTV) ratio is only 50%. Banks actually lend 80% LTV for first property and if you meet the TDSR framework, which you do.

Go ahead, enjoy the luxury condo living lifestyle. Now is the chance for you to upgrade not only your lifestyle but your social status. Your $120k pa income is actually big if you do not drive, do not gamble, do not smoke, do not drink, do not womanize and do not sodomize.
These activities will lead to divorces, monetary losses, diseases (STDs, AIDS, heart and liver diseases, etc).

Hi, sorry to hijack this thread but since it is a popular thread with many high networth posters, thought I could ask here.

I am thinking of selling my freehold landed terrace in a cityfringe location for 2 million. It has potential for appreciation as near Bidadari and Paya Lebar airbase which are about to be developed. Walking distance to upcoming MRT and Macpherson mall with shops, restaurents and NTUC supermarket. Has 3 coffeeshops and 3 clinics and Prime supermarket a short walk away. Within 1km of Maris Stella primary High school which was why we bought it.

Anyone interested? Can contact me at 97517334. Thanks...

HDB flat price falling. Better sell your flat fast. Don't be greedy. Just sell. Many people rushing to sell their HDB flat to upgrade to condo.


HDB resale prices sink 1.5% in Q1

Apr 1, 2014 - PropertyGuru.com.sg

Resale flat prices continue to fall, declining 1.5 percent in Q1 2014, according to newly released flash estimates of HDB’s resale price index (RPI).

The RPI provides information on general price movements in the resale public housing market.

Prices of HDB resale flats have been on a downward trend since the second half of 2013, falling 0.9 percent in Q3 and 1.5 percent in Q4.

More detailed public housing data for the first quarter will be released on 25 April.

Going forward, HDB will offer about 3,060 Build-to-Order (BTO) flats in Bukit Batok and Woodlands in May. An additional 3,000 flats will also be offered in a concurrent Sale of Balance Flats (SBF) exercise.

Landed property prices falling. Will prices recover? Noone can predict.

Read the article below.

" ... prices of landed homes fell for the second consecutive quarter, by 0.6 percent, after the decline of 1.0 percent previously."


Is your $2m on the high side? What's the lowest transacted price in your estate?
What's the land area and built up area?

Good luck!


Private home prices down 1.3% in Q1

Apr 1, 2014 - PropertyGuru.com.sg


Private residential property prices in Singapore fell by 1.3 percent in the first quarter of 2014, according to URA flash estimates released today.

This is higher than the 0.9 percent decline in the previous quarter.

Prices of non-landed private residential properties declined in the first quarter this year.

In the Core Central Region (CCR), prices slid 1.3 percent after decreasing 2.1 percent in the previous quarter. This is the fourth consecutive quarter of price decline in this segment, noted URA.

Prices in the Outside Central Region (OCR) dropped for the second consecutive quarter, by 0.3 percent compared to the previous 1.0 percent dip.

Over in the Rest of Central Region (RCR), prices fell 2.8 percent, compared with the 0.4 percent increase in the quarter before.

Meanwhile, prices of landed homes fell for the second consecutive quarter, by 0.6 percent, after the decline of 1.0 percent previously.

The flash estimates are compiled based on transaction prices given in caveats lodged during the first ten weeks of the quarter, supplemented by data on new units sold by developers in the first two months of the quarter.

URA will release updated figures four weeks later once more data on caveats lodged and take-up of new projects is captured.

You make the right choice. Read the article below on Jurong Lake. Property prices there will only go up.



SINGAPORE: Some 4,000 dragon boat and kayaking enthusiasts were at Jurong Lake over the weekend to take part in this year's PA PaddleFest.

It is a sign of things to come, as the venue could be hosting more water sports activities in the future.

Deputy Prime Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam, who is also MP for Jurong GRC, was the guest-of-honour at the event.

There were a variety of races, including one for people with special needs and a competition that involved multi-generation families.

More events are being lined up, among them a smaller version of the PaddleFest which is slated for June this year.

Jurong Lake will be undergoing a makeover next year, as part of the URA master plan to turn the district into a business and leisure destination.

This means residents in the area can look forward to more water activities in the future.

Mr Desmond Lee, Minister of State for National Development and MP for Jurong GRC, said: "Jurong Lake will be undergoing renovations, we will be upgrading the lake. As part of that endeavour, we will move the PA Water Venture site to a more prominent location along the Jurong Lake waterfront, where there will be F&B and other facilities for residents, so that water sports can and will become part and parcel of residents' recreation and lifestyle in this area."

Ho say liao.... property prices hitting peak and taking the turn.... time to whip out cash for those loaded people...

Welcome,

Its your choice at the end of the day, taking a loan on a non performing asset till you're 65 seems like a risky move. Personally I would hate to have a obligation hanging on me pass 50 that would keep me bonded to my job.

But of course all of us would like to move to the next stage of desires, be it cars condo's landed property what have you. If I may I would suggest you minimize the loan term to 15 or even better 10 years. Why so? Simply because this is not an investment property and from your profile I don't reckon you your savings will go into another property investment. Best you pay everything off asap before you hit 55 and lead another 10 years of stress free living. It would mean some lifestyle cutbacks but better now then when you're pushing 60 plus.

As for your choice of property if you are selecting a leasehold new condo near an existing MRT track its likely future gains have already been factored by the developers margins. In fact I could go on dissecting your choices and selected area (which I feel is over-hyped) but its pointless since you already decided and seem quite firm on it. Good luck with your sale.

Dissecting and analyzing? It is what I would call paralysis by analysis.

Yes, buying a property is a huge commitment for most of us salaried people, but in Singapore where land is scarce and especially when you are buying for own stay, it would be alright. Just make sure you can handle the loan and that you are in it for the long haul.

The poster rightly pointed out that it is indeed a form of forced savings. Many generation of homeowners before him, have reaped the financial benefits of home ownership.

Condo living brings your quality of life up a few notches. Before, I was contented staying in my cosy HDB exec flat, but after I made my move to a condo, whoa, there is no looking back. It was a case of "You don't know what you don't know".

Another thing is life is very unpredictable. You can plan all you want, but fate has a habit of springing nasty surprises. You must have read many stories of people delaying gratification because they wanted to save enough? Well, their delayed gratification became permanent delays.

Thanks everyone for your views, both positive and negative. I have discussed my plans with my close friends and family members, who are more knowledgable on property. I have considered all views from them as well as comments from fellow posters here and decided to buy a 2 room condo (this is big enough as we are a very small family) which costs just $1m, so that my loan will be only $400k and we aim to pay it off within 15 years (i.e. when I reach 55). Actually we qualify to take a much bigger loan but decided not to.

We have narrowed our choice to either Caspian or Lakefront Residences as they are very near the Lakeside MRT station. We can easily go to work by MRT and continue to save on transport cost. We look forward to luxury condo living. We plan to exercise more often in the gym, swimming in the pool and jogging around the Jurong Lake. Healthy living. The condo will also be just nice as our retirement home. When the Jurong Lake District is fully developed, we are confident that the price will rise much higher than $1m.

1. A room condo is a smaller space than a 5 room HDB flat.
2. You can have good view and Jurong lake and jog around it even if you just live in one of the HDB flat in that area. There is no reason why only Caspian or Lakefront condos enjoy this benefits
3. Swimming in the pool is something quite common if you join a club if you want to pay or if not simply join Safra club. Or if not, just paying ticket to a nearby swimming pool or water resort will do. With condo, you will be paying high maintenance fees and you may even feel stress if you didn't have time to utilise the facilities full to the value in the future. This may turn out to be fun anymore. Same with gym. It is only interesting as a dream. Once you are in it, it is quite expensive experience with no significant value.

If everyone thinks like you, then no one will buy a condo. A condo gives you convenience, you can just walk down from your unit and enjoy the gym, pool, landscaping, etc. if you use public facilities, you have to walk far and not much privacy. These places are crowded and you never know what kind of pervert characters around. You don't want your children or even yourself to be victims. A condo also provide security, you won't worry about vandals & painting of O$P$ on your flat wall. You won't have salesmen knocking on your door.

Why would some people pay millions for a condo? It is a status symbol. Once you can afford a condo, you have made it. All your hard work from young till now finally pays off.

Actually why are you so eager to minimize your loan amount and repayment period? With the current low interest rates, you should be able to generate better returns from the cash, even in semi-liquid assets such as bonds, pref shares or blue chip company with stable dividends payout. Moreover, these assets are definitely more liquid and will help you to cope with any short term cashflow issues should you need the money (touch wood) when there is temporary loss of income or emergency cash needs, etc.

But he needs to sacrifice a bigger HDB space for a smaller condo space for a much higher price. And I don't think people end up utilising alot of the facilities. I went to condos for viewing and most of the time even in the evening, the pools are quite empty.

I didn't say people should avoid condos at all cost. If one can more than comfortably pay for it, then go for it.

He said his family is small, so if it is only 3 persons (husband, wife and child), then a 2 room unit is comfortable as the child has a room of his own. Anyway, don't see your unit as your only living space, the whole condo compund is actually your recreational and living space.

Most people use the condo facilities during weekends or when they are on leave. For me, I am staying in a condo and enjoying the facilities and the status it brings. Family and friends now look up to you as they now recognise that you are now really successful. I bought my condo when I was 38 and am still financing my mortgage by CPF, I don't really feel any burden at all. To me, buying a condo for stay is a long term investment but most important of all, it gives me the affirmation of my higher social status.

Lol nice term, but I do do a lot of analysis before buying. Then again I have 11 properties (residential/commercial) all sitting on a 65% - 85% gain on the original purchase price. Be it as it may I still sticking with my approach to property as it served me well to date. There is a saying: Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered

Its exactly because the gentleman is question is a salaried which is why he should practice more caution, regardless long haul/short haul, own stay or investment like me there are the basic principals of overvalued and undervalued property.

Life in unpredictable, touch wood but if something happen to the sole provider do you want you're loved ones to take on the burden? Its more sensible and practice to assess risk based on what you do know and not speculative measures.

Lets review what we do know or don't know shall we?

- The individual initial proposal was to take on a loan bore by 2 people till they were age 65, 25 years from now. What the risk of one person losing their job or being incapacitated from now till 25 years from now? Risk? 40%

- Markets are currently riding high, purchasing a new property now will factor a degree of overpaying. Especially in a Jurong which a new and hyped up area which is going strong despite all areas going down. if prices in Jurong and River Valley hit the same psf price which would you go for? Chances of prices going higher then current on a leasehold 99 year facility 25 years down the road? 30%
(Unless we allow in another 3 Million foreigners of course)

- Jurong sentiments (://jurong.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/new-a0-boards-8498126_resize.jpg)
"Jurong Lake will be undergoing a makeover next year, as part of the URA master plan to turn the district into a business and leisure destination."

Wtf is a business and leisure districts, who is going to move there? Banks who are top paymasters in rental already have offices in Shenton, Changi Business Park and Tampines, Dhoby Gaut etc and are moving most of their operations to India.

There is a medical building also opening but again who is going to move there? We already Novena Mount E (not fully occupied), UE Medical in Novena (not fully occupied), Mount E , Glen E plus future plans for more novena medical facilities. I don't see doctors in practices packing and moving in droves to Jurong as well. Sounds like another Punggol waterfront idea. So whats your view on Jurong being the next Marina Bay Centre?

Anyway the OP seems to have reassess his situation and taken a safer approach, most of the clowns goading him on seems to have no idea on proper risk analysis. Its no wonder when the market tanks all the whiners come out and start bitching about the government.

I am glad you took to speaking to others on proper property advise, 400K loan spread out over 15 years works out about 2.5K per month @ 2%. With MCST and prop tax maybe 3.5K. You might to consider shortening you loan to 10 years but 55 to be debt free is still decent.

Over leveraging on a non income asset (your home) is definitely not something you want to do so that's a good approach too.

I still stand by my views on Jurong area, but if you can clear the loan by 55 and enjoy the next 20 years there good for you.

To sell and buy is no easy task, negotiate with the developer on the price and more. Its a buyers market now but not really. I am waiting for post 2016 before any more commitments.

Good luck

11 properties? Then it is understandable why you may have forgotten the basics. It is like I have been driving for 30 years and you ask me to take theory test now. I will probably flunk.

Go look through what you have written below and spot the mistakes.

Lol 3/4 of what I wrote was aimed at the gentleman's plight of upgrading to a Jurong condo and you're fixated on the first sentence?

Write something longer than a one liner to be taken seriously, in fact why not negate the Risk factors I listed when I reviewed the choice he made. I'm open to discussion if you disagree right? I don't admittedly know everything.

Now is a good time to upgrade from HDB flat to condo.

Sell your flat at $600k, use the cash for downpayment for a $800k condo.

Loan $200k and pay it off in 10 years. No problem if your combined income is at least $100k pa.

But make sure you do not waste on a car, drinking, smoking, dining in expensive restaurants twice a week, gambling or womanising. Sure money no enough if you indulge in these.

A 600K HDB flat is a big spacious living space (higher end HDB) but a 800K condo is a mini space (very low end condo) which you will probably feel uncomfortable if you are already use to the 600K HDB kind of living space.

Condo is not about space. It is about:

1. Higher social status and prestige.
2. Privacy.
3. Safety esp for young, pretty ladies.
4. Luxury living, pool, gym, tennis court at your doorstep.
5. No O$P$ on walls.
6. No urine in lifts.
7. Etc.

It is worth the premium.

Well said. I moved from public housing to a private condominium unit and life is simply wonderful. Not only do I get the respect and recognition from my family and peers, I feel happier and more contented. If I had known, I would have made the move earlier.

For those who can afford, my advice is to go for it. Life is short, enjoy luxury condominium living before you are too old to enjoy. The points mentioned below are absolutely true!

Congratulations to you. As long as our finances permit, upgrading to a condo to allow your family to enjoy is a good thing.

I was working in the corporate sector for more than 20 years, moving up the ranks over the years. I was earning very well but was not happy with the lifestyle. I was very stressed with the tight deadlines and schedules. My life was governed by my calendar. I also feel very guilty for not spending enough time with my wife, children and parents. So quietly, I promised to myself that I will get out of this rate race as fast as I can by building up my wealth so that I no longer need to work for someone else. I strived to be financially independent.

My patience and peseverance finally paid off. Through my skillful investment moves, I am now not debt free. I finished paying off my condo mortgage, paid off my car loan and other personal loans. I have also built up an investment portfolio that gives me an annual dividend income of $70k pa and I am also able to generate a trading profit of $30k pa. This income is now higher than my annual expenses of $80k pa. My wife can practically save her $90k pa salary if she wishes too, but she is kind enough to chip in $30k of the annual household expenses. I channel my extra savings back into my portfolio which is growing nicely.

As a millionaire, now I have more time to spend with my family and do social work to give back to society.

i live in a condo from which i upgraded from my 1st HDB. I did not feel that my social status has improved nor did i think families and friends now look up to me. Neither did i think that others who are staying in a condo are of higher social status than HDB dwellers. instead, ive never even thought of it until I chanced upon the postings here so I can't quite relate to why others would even think that way. nonetheless, i am happy to have moved into the condo as my family and I enjoy the facilities. the only negative is that I don't feel my estate being a good growing up environment for my young children as many of the units are rented out to foreigners and my children has little friends of similar age group within the estate.

Just like everything else, not all condos are made the same nor do their offer similar environment, facilities, convenience and status. Nowadays, from a very small plot of land, they can also squeeze a tall condo onto it, with maybe a gym, children play area and a small pool on one of the floors - and not all the units will have a car park lot! Like that, better off staying in an HDB flat.

Thus buying the "right" condo is very important.

I also don't really understand why people staying in a condo feel they have a higher status. There are many condos here, so the distinction between staying in those new HDB flats especially the DBSS ones, and a condo is not that great. It's not like long ago where condos were a rarity and everyone else was staying in HDB.

I bought a condo because of the 50m lap pool, tennis courts and gym - facilities that I know I wll use. Also for the privacy, exclusiveness and ample car parks. It was tiring and time consuming going to public or community facilities, when I was staying in HDB flat. Now I get my exercise and yet have more time for my family.

Whether you live in a condo or a HDB flat does not really matter as long as you are happy. If you can afford a condo, by all means, upgrade to a condo and enjoy. We are lucky to be Singaporeans as the majority of people here leads comfortable lives if they adjust their lifestyle according to their means. Look at the many countries in the world, just stop and ponder how fortunate we are. Be grateful and contented. Strive hard to improve your lives but not at the expense of quality family time and service to the community. Live a meaningful, balanced life.

Condos are so common nowadays...I think those who live in landed then have a higher social status...

600k hdb mean it is likely a 5rm flat. 800k condo means likely just a studio unit or the most an old 2rm unit. Usually with this very difficult to downsize in living space so drastically, esp if you have children or parents staying with you. Even if it is newly weds without children yet, the tiny condo will get to your nerves very soon.

Agree condos are very common now. Landed properties are very limited in qty in SG, so those who own them are sitting on very precious assets. Whether that meant higher social status is another matter though IMHO.

Yes and no. If the landed property is in an exclusive landed enclave then it will be highly desireable and thus valuable. If it is surrounded by HDBs or near roads then maybe not so. Also in danger of acquisition for road widening and redevelopment. And if you are staying in these kinds of landed homes, you will probably wished for it to be acquired as staying in those will be unbearable because of the noise, dust and lack of privacy where people staying in HDB staring right into your home.

Other than the possible higher value of the land in landed properties, there is little else to shout about staying in a landed home as compared to condo living in terms of facilities and landscaping. For me, it will be condo living anytime.

Status is meaningless if it does not lead to better quality of life.

I agree with you. To me, landed propery is meaningless unless I stay in the Nassim area. I will stay in a condo any time too. Staying in a condo in the Orchard area is any time higher social status than staying in a landed in some ulu place in the east. Hahaha.

Poor soul, 35, earn only $3.5k pm. Wife, 28, earn only $2.5k pm. Luckily we can afford a 3 room BTO HDB flat. Bought very cheap. Thank you HDB.

Used to live in a condo too but moved to landed when walls started cracking when upstairs did msrble flooring...it is just a space in the sky compared to owning land...and do not need to live in fear of collapsing buildings ha ha...

Used to live in a landed but moved to a condo when rats start to visit our home. Also could not stand the constant barking of dogs and salemen knocking on our doors. We now live in a more peaceful environment. We love the facilities and landscaping too.

Problems I faced when staying in landed (terrace).

1. Porch only enough space for 1 car, and road outside always jammed with neighbours' cars. Situation nightmarish during major festivities like CNY, Christmas, or whenever a neighbour holds a gathering.

2. Mosquitoes infestation. You can clean up all you want, but neighbours' overgrown plants and unkempt lawn are attracting all sorts of insects.

3. Walls and floors cracked when neighbours start building taller homes (3 and 3.5 stories) in the place of single and double storey homes.

4. Very unsightly and non-uniform facade. Those neighbours who could not afford to upgrade their homes are spoiling the looks of newer homes. Likewise, those newer homes are blocking out the views and air flow of the shorter older homes.

5. Can get very hot and stuffy.

6. Don't have any views.

7. Any repairs to home can be expensive. Also no collective sharing of costs with neighbours.

8. Got to bring out thrash

9. Outside road narrowed by cars parked along the road. Dangerous for people to walk.

Aiyoh, too many to list. Also it brought back not so fond memories......