I'm 46 this year and earning $104k pa. My wife is a housewife who takes care of our two kids and do the housework. Even though she does not earn a salary for being a home maker, I value her work. I just tell her that her work is valued at $100k pa and that makes her happy because I appreciate her.

We started off with a HDB flat, bought directly from HDB at a very cheap price. After many years, I finished paying the loan. Then, in 2006, I found a very good condo deal and upgraded to the condo which we bought at $500k. We sold our HDB flat and got lots of cash and plus our savings, we paid for the condo in full. Now the condo is worth $1.3m. We are very lucky, we started off with a cheap HDB flat and now our net wrorth is more than $1m because my condo has appreciated.

I save a lot in my early working years because I use the bus and MRT to work. I also don't party after work as I am a faithful family man.

Lower middle income family, mid-50s, annual family income $160k pa.

Staying in an old condo which we bought for $400k in 2003, now worth $1m, no more mortgage.

When we retire at 65, we plan to sell the condo and buy a 2 room BTO flat, which cost only $10,000 (after grants), as reported in the news. By then, we are not working and has no income, so we should qualify for grants to buy the flat. We will then retire with the $1m cash after selling the condo.

STOP SAYING LOWER MIDDLE INCOME.
YOU HAVE $160k PA.

THAT IS NOW LOWER MIDDLE. IT IS DEFINITELY HIGHER THAN A LOWER.
JUST PUT MIDDLE INCOME GROUP.

HOW MANY STRATA DOES SINGAPORE HAS?
LOWER INCOME < 100k
MIDDLE INCOME < 200k
UPPER INCOME > 200k

There is no official definition / delineation of income classes here.*

It is all about who you compare with. If you come to this forum and read the many posters' high incomes ($300k - $700k pa) then obviously the $160k pa your family earns is going to place it as a lower middle income family.

This is a phenomenon observed in many social studies especially in big cities. People of similar income class tended to congregate / live in the same neighborhood. And this leads the people to think and feel they are middle class even though they may be earning very little (if they are staying in a poor neighborhood) or they may be earning a lot (if they are staying in rich neighborhood). *They look at their neighbors and see that they have similar material possessions and conclude that they must thus be average or middle class.*

Even though Singapore is a much smaller city, this phenomenon does exist. Condo dwellers tend to think they are middle income as they see their neighbors both in their own condos and neiighbouring condos having pretty much the same material possessions - cars, maids, country club membership etc. likewise for those staying in HDB heartlands and fully landed property enclaves.

So you should not be surprised if a guy earning $500k pa living in a landed property enclave declare that he is a middle income guy. This is because he is comparing with fellow high income neighbours (businessmen or highly paid professionals).

One end result of this phenomenon is that the rich tended to overestimate the income of the poor, while the poor tended to underestimate the income of the rich! What this is saying is that the poor guy will think the rich guy is perhaps earning $10k - $50k pa more than him when in fact the rich could be actually earning a few hundred $k more!

But with the Internet and with people more willing to share their income openly, this skewed impression would be corrected. In the beginning of course, you will have reactions of disbelief and denials. You will also see people coming forward with outlandish claims - part of the denial process. Then come self deprecating claims of being poor/low income - part of the acceptance process.

sad to say but people like you are abusing the $10,000 flats. they are for really low income earners, not for people like you..

This is a good observation. There are many people abusing the system. There are people who are rich, e.g. earning $700k pa, but they still insist on staying in a HDB flat and enjoying the utilities rebates meant for the lower income. There are people who still own a HDB flat (and they rent it out) while the enjoy staying in a luxury condo. This is a big loophole in the current housing policy.

People who own private property today cannot buy a HDB flat unless they sell away their HDB flat within 6 months, whereas those who currently own a HDB flat can keep their flat and rent it out while they buy a condo and stay in the condo. HDB flats are for the lower income groups in society and should not be abused and hoarded by the rich and higher income groups. This housing loophole need to be corrected. There are people with multiple private properties and are multi millionaires but they still keep their HDB flat. Shame on them.

this is not a loophole. it's fair game for all to use HDB as a stepping stone, with or without giving up on the stepping stone. you will perhaps do it one day too, but don't cry unfair when they close this "loophole" just before you do it.

speaking of fair game, how about the foreigners who come here and enjoy everything the government is doing for them - $350m every year for foreign students, PR privileges that are almost the same as citizens', mainstream media incessantly saying that foreigners create jobs and that we badly need them, politicians defending foreigners, foreigners hiring their own kind in MNCs, etc etc. fair game too?

While we are busy comparing how much we make in this world, we should reflect on our human existence in this temporary world.

This is a good reminder for all humanity - ://.youtube.com/watch?v=kE7t6wnfx0E

I agree it is a loophole. A good policy should be balanced and not one-sided. This loophold will be plugged soon I hope.

Hi, my spouse and I are also a low middle income family. We are in our mid 40s and we earn an annual income of only $150k pa. We also live in a condo, valued by professionals at $1.2m, no more loan. We have a combined cash and CPF savings of only $1m. Plus other assets, our total net worth is only $2.5m, very low for a couple in their 40s.

Our retirement plan is to sell our condo and then buy the BTO HDB flat for the elderly, costing $100k now. Hope the price will not rise too much by the time we retire at 60.

I am single 37 year old. Live in HDB house fully paid.
Earn 85k per annum.
Consider myself to be middle to upper middle class.

Not to be a troll but this is lower middle at best in Singapore...

Sorry to say this, you are in the lower middle income group. To be in the upper middle income group, you should be earning at least $160k pa and your wife should earn at least $130k. And you need to own and live in a condo. This is the profile of the upper middle class.

I disagree. I live in a condo and also own a HDB flat bought direct from the HBD. This flat is being rented out, providing me a passive income and soon a retirement income. I pay 5-digit income tax every year on my employment income & rent and get practically nothing back from the government since I am single.

The hbd flat that I have bought is probably the only tangible benefit from all the years of paying huge income taxes. So why should I be forced to return or sell my hbd flat then ?
If I lose my job tomorrow, I can rent or sell my condo and move back to my HDB flat. I don't expect the government to take care of me when I get retrenched. I have to make my own contingency plan.

The problem with some Singaporeans is this loser whining attitude : things are not fair, we want the government to intervene. This is real life. No one owes u a living. Compete or be condemned.

I disagree with your disagreement. It is not surprising why you disagree as you are one of those who benefits from the current policy. People like you who are rich high earners should not hoard HDB flats as the flats are meant for the poor and lower income groups. If you want to invest in property, then you should sell your HDB flat and buy another condo. HDB flats are NOT meant for investment but for owner occupation.

If you do lose your job, and you don't have a HDB flat, you can always sell away your condo and buy a resale HDB flat. For instance if your condo is worth $3m, you can sell and get $3m cash and then buy a $200k resale 2 room HDB flat. You can then survive on the $2.7m cash. You can even retire on the $2.7m cash or you can drive a taxi and earn $5k a month.

Tsk tsk...such socialist thinking. Good luck whining!!

Here's sharing of our family lifestyle. We are also in the low middle income group. We get a total salary of $165,000 per year. I am 45 and my wife is 43. We stay in a condo in the sub urban region. Now it is worth $900k and our mortgage left is $600k. We upgraded from a 4 room HDB flat. We take the bus and MRT to work. We have 3 kids and they take the school bus to school. We have a maid to take care of the kids after school. We go home at 9pm every weekday.

Spouse, 54, works in a company, $120k pa. Me, home maker, manage household and also invests our savings, can earn in dividends $50k pa. Home is a condo bought in 2002 at $500k, now fully paid up. When spouse retires at 65, we will downgrade to a HDB flat.

I earn $150k pa and spouse $90k pa. We have a terrace in Sg and a 2 bedder condo unit about to TOP. We are buying a semi d in JB. We may choose to live there for a few years as our costs can be reduced and savings grow faster. Then we can pay off our 1.4 million mortgage hopefully in 13 years time. By then, I would be 51 years old, we can save at least S$100k a year if we stay in Malaysia with me just working in the mornings....we can then retire or semiretire in our terrace in Sg with passive income from our paid up properties. We do not have to sell and downgrade to a HDB if we do that....

Your $50k pa dividends income very impressive. Can share how much principal amount you invested to generate that returns? And what kind of investments you put the money in?

Most of my savings are in FDs because as I am near retirement I am hesitant to put them into stocks. So my returns are less than 2% pa. :-(

Early 50s couple, low middle income, combined income $120k pa. Home is a 3 room condo, worth $1.2m, loan outstanding $400k. Hope to retire at 75.

Full time trader and investor (millionaire), earns $100k pa in dividends and and trading gains. Wife earns $110k pa. Lives in a 3 bedroom condo worth $1.1m, fully paid up. Drives an old conti car, fully paid up. Debt free. We are categorised in the middle income group in Singapore.

We plan to retire in 15 years time at 60 years old. By then my passive dividend income will be big enough to more than cover our annual expenses and I don't have to trade any more.

both me & wife are 43 now. total annual income about S$400k (incl. bonus).
working as senior mgmt in manufacturing industry though... very tiring
owned 3 bedder condo, got to change our 9 year old car soon
2 kids... saving up for their future.

Hi, after a lot of hardwork i have saved $5000 that I want to invest in a safe investment that can give me monthly dividends.
can you suggest?

You are so rich. How much is your combined net worth?

How much is your condo now worth? Any loan left?

Condo fully paid... est $1.5mil....waiting on sideline to go in again as missed the boat...

When we collected our condo keys early this year, we found that many were buying to rent out. It seems that many people in Singapore are owning two homes or more. It is no wonder that the developers are still quite bullish when bidding for land. People here just love brick and mortar investment.

I checked the transacted rentals for the condo and it seems the owners are getting decent returns. A one bedder studio can fetch up to $2800 pm. A 4 bedder can fetch $6k pm.

ID firms, lighting, curtains, furniture and electrical appliances shops all seem to be busy all year round. Property agents are forever present in the condo as well. It seems a like a mini economy. I think if the cooling measures, TDSR, MSR and what not kills the property market, many people will be out of jobs! This will be something the gahmen have to balance carefully while trying to prevent a property bubble from forming.

Just have to be patient for next financial crisis.
What goes up must come down.
Todays inflated demand is due our garment loose import policy of foreign trash

Does your $100k includes paper gain? What is your combined networth? Do you have any kids?

We originally planned to put our CPF money into stock and shares, but we found the guaranteed 2.5% from CPF is quite ok for us at the moment. Together with the MA and SA both giving 4% interest, our CPF is generating a tidy sum of $40k interest pa - no risk!

Whatever stocks holdings we have are all invested with cold hard cash. Last year's dividends for us was $38k total. We are still short of $22k of passive income to hit our target of $100k.

We recently bought another condo for rental. With this we are hoping to generate another stream of income of $40k pa. But we have to manage the loan also.

Be careful what you wish for. While a recession or financial crisis will hit the rich by reducing their wealth, they are usually able to pull through. It is the average Joes that will suffer the most.

Most wealthy people have buffers, but the average Joe does not. When jobs goes in a recession or crisis, the average Joes will be the first to lose their jobs or have cuts to their pay.

Investment and spreading the risks are what rich people do so that they can ride out crisis. Many average Joes (myself included) are beginning to do this when we have saved enough. So I would not want to wish for another crisis or recession.

Just wait patiently for crisis to bring prices back to sane levels.

You are now a millionaire. What is your combined net worth?

What is the sane level? Households earning $300K to $400K pa have found $1m property affordable. Look at the car COE. At $80k COE, people are still rushing in.

I think if you cannot afford to buy now, you will most certainly not able to afford to buy in a crisis, because you will be jobless.

Hi gurus,

We need your advice regarding our plan to upgrade. My wife and I are both 40. We have a combined monthly income of $10k a month or $120k pa. We now live in a 5 room HDB flat which is fully paid up and valued at $600k.

We are thinking of selling our flat at $600k and use the cash for downpayment for a $1.2m condo. We then take a 25 years loan of $600k.

Since we both take public transport to work, we don't spend much on transport, so we feel we can afford the monthly payments of about $2400 (24% of our monthly income). We will use our CPF and cash for the monthly payments.

Is this advisable? Thank you.

What are your jobs? What's the split in terms of earnings? How many kids do you have? What's your avg monthly expenses?

These are important points to consider before buying a much more expensive property especially when you and your wife are in your 40s.

If you are prepared to work and retire at age 65 with not much CPF savings left..then guess should be OK.

Our jobs are stable and we can most likely able to work until 65. Our expenses are not high as we only have a son and we don't drive.

We see our monthly mortgage payment (using CPF and cash) like forced savings and when we reach 65 and retire, we can sell the condo (after enjoying condo living for 25 years), say at $1.6m, and then buy the HDB studio unit (for old folks). This HDB studio cost only $100k. We can then retire with the $1.5m cash.

Seems like you have the answer yourself....go for it then...

Thanks for the vote of confidence. We will start marketing our HDB flat and also start hunting for a ready-to-occupy condo unit, preferably just TOP (new, nicer, modern design, fresh 99 years lease).

You cant be serious or did you just answer yourself? You relied on the advise of a total stranger (faceless and anonymous at that) and made your decision. A decision that will cost you >$1m and tie you and spouse down for what, 25 years?

If you had asked more generic questions like the trend for property prices in Singapore over the long term, the trend of loan interest rates, and property demand and supply etc. It would be understandable.

Questions on regarding affordability is best answered by yourself. The amount you can afford, and your current and future needs, job security, emergency funds are all things only you and your spouse would know best.

Having said that, moving onto a condo is a natural progression and manifestation of upward mobility. 40s is not old, not young. For us, we moved into a condo when we were 50, a little late, but it was one of the best decisions we made. We were not after the status of living in a condo, but what impressed us and helped make up our minds was the landscaping, the quiet and exclusive ambiance, the ample car park space, the security and convenience of having a myriad of facilities at our door step. We are certainly more physically active now, and contented.

Being able to fully pay up for the condo clinched it for us. No need to ask anybody.