Anyone knows the retention rate for the law firm at MBFC tower 1

Harry E retained a few.

Withers and Lee & Lee have yet to announce retention.

Next Steps
 

So can any seniors outline next steps for trainees who have not ben retained?

“4 of the smaller Big 4s” = all of the “Big 4s”

I'm not a senior. But here are the laws of the post-pandemic world, well, what I make of it:

1. If you're in corporate, go to litigation

2. If you're in litigation, go to litigation

3. If you're from a SME, apply to a smaller SME.

4. If you're from an international SME, but on the Singapore side / do SG work, you're still the same as (3). Working on a few matters here and there or assisting - same as (3).

5. If you're from an international SME, but do international work, apply to MBFC T1.

While the world is indeed your oyster and you are advised against a weak mindset, excuses about the economy aside, they'll still prefer that you were retained and finding a new job than otherwise. I'm sorry guys, just being practical.

This Covid sucks for everyone, and prejudices a lot of good and talented trainees. But this is my two cents. You're not screwed if you're not in a SME or international office of an international SME, slightly screwed if you're in a Singapore SME and very screwed if you're from a small SME.

The truth of the matter is that there are more candidates than there are jobs out there. Much, much more, given that retention rates amongst the mid sized have fallen, and some firms not retaining at all
Add that to the glut.

Now's the time to tap on who you know rather than what you know. Hope everyone gets out fine.

If you still have Part B though, don't worry market will get better. If you need a job this year, this is a bad time. Be realistic about your options. The firms who have retained have limited spaces. And the firms who have retained 0 have absolutely no space and may cut costs/people. It is all a numbers game, dollars and cents.

And of course I say this with the obvious that the only thing your employer will look at / bin is where you trained at. Good grades help, but only to an extent since you are now dealing with the practice of law and not (mostly) what an academic thinks.

They will look at (i) where you trained at as an indicator of your usefulness (ii) what your bosses thought when they didn't retain you (iii) your reasons (iv) your practical track record. You can have a FCH and lose every case, or a 2.2 and win every case you work on. Might be luck, or might be you have something the other guy doesn't.

Of course, if the place has a poor track record of retention the question on everyone's mind would be why you doomed yourself.

I graduated from a local uni. I have been studying hard, not travelling for any exchange programs, only to be trained at a mid sized firm and I have not been retained.

I know I have problems finding an associate position. Now, I envy those party goers/travel lust in law school who also studied and enjoyed themselves. I know of a lot of people who went overseas and had fun but still managed to get retained in big fours/int firms, maybe employers like them. Maybe they are got more worldly and street smart from having different experiences. I don’t know.

I just feel that no matter how much I study I still can’t beat those party goers/wanderlusts. Why is life unfair.

Why can't everyone do law? Why is life unfair? Life is inherently unfair deal with it. You can keep looking for an answer to why life is unfair but not find a real solution.

The only firms that are more 'desirable' than B4 are Baker and CC, to the mind of a fresh grad at least. The rest - if you're not doing international work fully, not a big deal. It doesn't impress anyone. You can play pretend, though.

Pay is not the only metric. The B4 provide future employers with a mark of having been trained. It looks great on the CV

Grades are only one aspect. You must learn and know how the world works to be a better lawyer. We aren't talking about the metaphysical world. The best cross-examiners are those who know how the human mind works. The best lawyers know how the game is played, not what 100 cases on the subject say. The best corporate lawyers know why a legally sound solution will fall through. You must also be liked.

I think you still have a clean slate. Take it and roll with it. F the presumption that you're incompetent. Cast your net far and see what you get. In any case, most of your friends won't be in practice after 2 years. They'll stay for 1 to 1.5 years max. Some even 6 months. You'll be free to take their place at 2PQE.

Just find a good mentor. Opportunities will always be there.

i completely empathise - life will probably be never fair. but if you keep working hard and try to inch forwards, it's better than being two steps back!

Attrition rate in b4 is insane. How many people can stay. Don't bother - they just got a head start

Is training at a Formal Law Alliance good?

What do you mean by SME? I know it to be small medium enterprise >.<

Imho, it is the same training as any mid sized firm unless you're talking Baker CC etc.

If a shoe is made from a Nike factory without the branding, you get the same quality as a Nike. If it is made from a Converse factory in alliance with Nike, you get Converse quality (assuming, for the sake of argument, Converse is not on par, which I don't necessarily agree with). Those are things to look out for if I'm shopping for shoes.

I can sell the shoe as a Nike, but it will always be Converse that made it.

Most FLAs' SG side do not give you improved training standards by virtue of a brand. Hours are Way Way shorter

Is it harder to secure TCs at FLAs?

apply to MAS

They are less selective. It's the trickle down effect.

Some firms also retain/select by connections

What's the difficulty in securing TCs like for different classes of firms?

CC/Baker
Big 4 Law Firm
Other FLAs / JVs
Mid-sized SLPs
Small SLPs

MAS is looking for econs/finance/tech graduates; less interested in legally-trained people. For legal counsel work, MAS doesn't hire fresh lawyers.

My experience is that FLAs are generally more selective (close to Big 4); they also hire far less trainees

The hiring by connections point is very true, but I think it applies to all firms

Baker
CC
Big 4 Law Firm
Rodyk, Withers
Other FLAs / JVs. No, getting a TC at a FLA / JV is not going to put you into Baker/CC territory so stop acting
Mid-sized SLPs
Small SLPs

But how about the linklaters and HSF offices in Singapore? I’m wondering why do the international firms have so little presence in SG as compared to other Asian cities like Hong Kong or even Tokyo?

Untrue on point #1. Rodyk, KW, etc not as selective as B4. Same goes for knockoffs. Only exception is if you're applying to do ONLY international work with SG work to fulfil ptc.

Put retention aside. How much do these firms pay ptcs compared to the 2K at b4

Hello. Unfortunately, much of the skillset that's useful in the market place isn't taught in school and can't be gained by mugging. And it's not just wordly-wise and streetsmarts. It's so many other things.

Plus, mugging is something that prepares you for exams... Which only tests one part of what legal work requires you to be good at..

I'm at a FLA and receiving 2K. There's another FLA paying 2.5K

Sounds about right

I'm under a government bonded scholarship; having trouble finding TCs...

Makes sense. Firms hire trainees with a view to retain them. If you cannot be retained, why hire you?

The market rate for MOST FLAs is less than 2. Good that your FLA is actually matching B4

How come CC is below Baker?

Cc
Baker
Big 4 Law Firm
Rodyk, Withers
Other FLAs / JVs. No, getting a TC at a FLA / JV is not going to put you into Baker/CC territory so stop acting
Mid-sized SLPs
Small SLPs

ya, heard they don't hire many lawyers, unless you have some years of liti experience. unless u r a scholar.

how would Davinder Singh Chambers be ranked in this hierarchy?

Cc
Baker
Big 4 Law Firm
Rodyk, Withers
Other FLAs / JVs. No, getting a TC at a FLA / JV is not going to put you into Baker/CC territory so stop acting
Mid-sized SLPs
Small SLPs

This is difficult to rank because DSC is a outlier. It is not the rest of the Big 4 but training there is surely good or better than B4.

But not many people can take the hours/not sustainable. For some of us there's a degree of self-selection (and preservation lol) so it might be excluded.

He does pay really well though.

In terms of prestige, the best but long hours I hear. Good for the career, bad for all other aspects of life.

If you're a MAS scholar you can't get called when serving your bond and you'll be sent to do finance/economics/policy work :)

But after you enter practice you realise it is

Milbank, White & Case, Shearman Sterling, MoFo, Skadden, Dechert (if you are open to move to HK, then you have more options like Cravath, Kirkland)
Traditional Magic Circle (links, cc, a&o)
Offshore Magic Circle (Cooleys, Harneys)
Silver Circle
Baker
The rest

can do economics work with law degree meh?

btw, does anyone know about law degrees and IRAS? keen on finding a niche, like taxation law.

So did your inferiority complex develop before or after entering law school?

he thinks being good at exams alone will make him a good lawyer

on part b they tell people dont anyhow go overseas, need to be in sg for some classes and things such as call papers. i wanna see how mad you get when the people who go bangkok bali hk every other weekend get distinctions

It depends. Some departments have quite a number of legally trained officers. These departments like people who can write well as their officers would have to do a fair bit of it.